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Will P & Y accept crossbow kills?
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https://www.fieldandstream.com...ouncement-crossbows/



Link to article.


Kathi

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Posts: 8675 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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I have arrowed quite a few animals that I’m sure well exceed P&Y minimums. I’ve never measured them and am just not into “inches.” Nothing against those that are in to inches.
But if I was a decision maker in P&Y, I’d not let in cross bow kills. The skill level required to kill with a vertical bow vs cross bow is immensely different. I’ve seen shows on TV where 8-10 year old kids are stationed in a blind, with a cross bow propped up on a shooting rest. The deer walks in, the kid looks through a scope, pulls a trigger, dead deer. Great that kids are “hunting” but is that what P&Y wants?


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Posts: 2492 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 08 December 2006Reply With Quote
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No.

Forget the vertical bow, horizontal bow stuff. This was a term invented by the crossbow manufacturers years back when they were trying to horn in on many states bow hunting privileges. A crossbow isn't a bow and never was. The differences between them was set down many centuries ago by law and in literature written back then. Nothing has changed.

I believe there is a crossbow record book but have no idea what it is.


Roger
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Posts: 2565 | Location: Washington (wetside) | Registered: 08 February 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by df06:
I have arrowed quite a few animals that I’m sure well exceed P&Y minimums. I’ve never measured them and am just not into “inches.” Nothing against those that are in to inches.
But if I was a decision maker in P&Y, I’d not let in cross bow kills. The skill level required to kill with a vertical bow vs cross bow is immensely different. I’ve seen shows on TV where 8-10 year old kids are stationed in a blind, with a cross bow propped up on a shooting rest. The deer walks in, the kid looks through a scope, pulls a trigger, dead deer. Great that kids are “hunting” but is that what P&Y wants?


And what would be the difference between that and a bow in that situation. 'Skill' is a relative term that can mean different things to different folks. There is skill in woodsmanship and skill as a shooter, what platform that may be. Everyone always likes to rag on crossbows as the easy way out but fails to realize their own advantages. Fixed tree stands, food plots, ability to cut shooting lanes, 90% let off (or more), baiting, trail cams, 4 wheelers, ect. all significantly make the a hunt less skillful then those who might not be able to employ such methods. I think its only a matter of time before P & Y allow people to register crossbow kills, just another string propelling an arrow.


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Posts: 1056 | Location: Eau Claire, WI | Registered: 20 January 2011Reply With Quote
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Years back I was one of the directors for our states Bowhunting organization. The Crossbow manufacturers were going state to state attempting to get their wares legalized during Bowhunting season.

We like most states particularly in the west were against it. But the elected officials who didn't know much about either bows or crossbows couldn't see the problem so we set up a little demonstration.

We asked a small group of them to first shoot three shots with a bow into a target at close range. Most shot badly or missed completely because they had no prior experience with a bow. We then had them shoot three bolts into the same target with a crossbow. They all more or less hit the target.

The point we were obviously trying to make is hunting with a bow takes far more practice and patience then buying a crossbow, sighting it in and going hunting.

Our Bowhunting season was originally intended to be self limiting of technology and efficiency and put the focus on the skill of the participant instead. We fight enough battles with new technology that do threaten our ability to maintain our unique seasons without having to fight a new weapon choice too.

To quote Pope and Young who by the way modeled their standards off Washington states example;

"The Pope and Young Club does not consider the crossbow to be a hunting bow and will not accept any trophies collected by crossbow hunters. Further, the Pope and Young Club considers the use of crossbows during bowhunting seasons to be a serious threat to the future of bowhunting."

As I said earlier there is I think an organization that accepts crossbows, but I have no idea what it is - go there.


Roger
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Posts: 2565 | Location: Washington (wetside) | Registered: 08 February 2005Reply With Quote
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Last deer season my daughter and I were coming in off our stand for some lunch. We met a guy at the trail head who was gearing up and had pretty much the same sentiments as you and blasted us for 'cheating'. For the record the crossbow is for my daughter who, would never be able to pull back the legal requirement in a compound. I could tell that my daughter was taken back by this comment and was a little upset. Maybe I should of let it go but I really wanted to show this man the ignorance of his words. So, I got out my discharge target and set it 40 yards down the trail and made a wager that if we switched weapons who would be closer to the center of target. I bet that guy thought it would be an easy 50.00, except that he missed the target. At that point I hadn't shot a compound in 2 years AND the bow had a draw length that was probably an inch too long but I still hit 2" from center.

For the record, I started hunting with a compound and now use a recurve and mostly spot and stalk or still hunt public land. What so called 'bowhunting' has turned into cannot be considered 'traditional' with all the technology that todays archer routinely uses. Hell, when I was teaching my wife how to shoot the compound I bought her it took all of 20 min of instruction and practice before she was hitting the bull at 30 yards.


"though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression."

---Thomas Jefferson
 
Posts: 1056 | Location: Eau Claire, WI | Registered: 20 January 2011Reply With Quote
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Crossbow hunting certainly rises to the level of "real" hunting but it doesn't qualify as bowhunting, IMHO.

I've never used a crossbow but I absolutely would and would have no issue doing so. I would call it crossbow hunting (for an added challenge during gun season), not bowhunting.

Zeke
 
Posts: 1909 | Registered: 27 October 2011Reply With Quote
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Sure, why not. But ONLY in the xbow category. I laugh when I think of the number of good bucks I could've killed if I had a xbow in my hands instead of a compound (and I'm well aware traditional bow hunters can say the same re having a compound instead of a long bow or recurve).


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Posts: 150 | Location: US of A | Registered: 03 April 2020Reply With Quote
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I’d buy this skill business if the “harder” bows were not compound bows with sights, releases, stabilizers, tuned to the Nth degree stuff.

The range limitations between crossbows and “vertical” bows are the same. I’ve heard crossbow hunters claim that their bows require more horizontal space and that handicaps them…

I’ve shot stick and string bows and also compound bows. The compound is ridiculously easy compared to a longbow.

Frankly, claims of skill are meaningless regarding a record book. It’s about the size of the animal, and that is pretty much chance- does it come by (which IMO, should discount archery as a more skillful pursuit given the season is an order of magnitude longer in most places), genetics, and access.

Same issue with muzzleloader stuff. I’m waiting to see someone claim they need to shut down the “modern” muzzleloader seasons and force folks to use matchlocks.
 
Posts: 7816 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007Reply With Quote
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Seriously? A xbow isn't easier to shoot than a compound in your opinion? We're not talking range situations here either.


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Posts: 150 | Location: US of A | Registered: 03 April 2020Reply With Quote
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Seriously.

A tuned compound with all the geegaws is more easy to shoot well compared to a longbow than a crossbow is compared to the tricked out compound bow.

Should P&Y throw out all records from compound bows?

The usual claim I hear from bow hunters compared to firearm is that they have to get closer to make a kill.

Crossbow and compound bow RANGE is pretty much identical.

Now, can the average hunter pick up a crossbow and hit a target easier than with a compound bow using all the tech for making it easier? Sure.

But they still have to get as close to the game animal and they get the same rules as bow hunters (where legal). Seems to me that they should be treated the same.

Of course, I principally hunt with firearms (I have hunted once with a bow, and didn’t really care for it- for multiple reasons.

I’ve heard both sides of the crossbow/bow debate, and find the skill argument pretty weak. Especially given the number of bow wounded deer I’ve seen on my property.
 
Posts: 7816 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007Reply With Quote
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One major difference between a crossbow and a real bow is movement. Any bowhunter can tell you the amount of times game has spooked when trying to draw. With a crossbow no such movement beyond moving your trigger finger.


Also a bow whether no matter the type is very form dependent, bad form or release equals not hitting the intended target. No so much a problem with a crossbow in comparison. Only need to control that trigger movement again.


Roger
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I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along.
- Glen St Charles

*we band of 45-70ers*
 
Posts: 2565 | Location: Washington (wetside) | Registered: 08 February 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Cougarz:
One major difference between a crossbow and a real bow is movement. Any bowhunter can tell you the amount of times game has spooked when trying to draw. With a crossbow no such movement beyond moving your trigger finger.



Yup....exactly what I was getting at. There's no comparison between the two in a hunting situation.


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Posts: 150 | Location: US of A | Registered: 03 April 2020Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Cougarz:
One major difference between a crossbow and a real bow is movement. Any bowhunter can tell you the amount of times game has spooked when trying to draw. With a crossbow no such movement beyond moving your trigger finger.


Also a bow whether no matter the type is very form dependent, bad form or release equals not hitting the intended target. No so much a problem with a crossbow in comparison. Only need to control that trigger movement again.


In response to your first point, this is remedied by ground blinds and brushed in tree stands that are 30 feet off the ground. My cousin is never busted for movement because of these two things. To your second point, any weapon is form dependant. Most Crossbows are notorious for being front heavy and having heavy triggers with a bunch of creep. Not only that you must actually lift them up to use the sights or adjust to where the game is coming from (i.e. movement). Your post implies that the crossbows are some magical killing machine that one barely needs to aimed properly. If that were true how do people miss all the time with rifles? I'm not saying that crossbows don't offer an edge, they do but that edge isn't quite as great as you make it out to be especially considering every other advantage that a so called 'bowhunter' can employ.


"though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression."

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Posts: 1056 | Location: Eau Claire, WI | Registered: 20 January 2011Reply With Quote
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I could personally give two shits, I used to shoot competitive long bows and recurves and I still have my Bear Kodiak.

It isn't worth arguing about, it has been beaten to death.

It is almost as stupid as the blackpowder versus inline argument.

German hunting law dictates that archery and blackpowder are unethical. So tons of German hunters bowhunt in Denmark and other places, and shoot their blackpowder rifles in Africa.

If it is legal in your state do it.

I am not sure why so many people try to shut doors on other hunters it is fully assinine.

Deer doesn't care what you shoot it with as long as you do it humanely.
 
Posts: 7567 | Registered: 10 October 2012Reply With Quote
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Well true but the Pope & Young club was formed long ago before crossbows were much of an issue. The same with each state that set down their equipment laws.

But in the last years the crossbow manufacturers have made a concerted effort to change these laws. One method was to find a disabled person and con him into making an ADA complaint that the laws weren't fair. My state was one of them. We however countered by having a known quadriplegic competitive archer and hunter of long standing who helped us fend them off.

We also invited several legislators who had no archery experience to shoot both a compound and a crossbow. With the compound it was hit or miss, with the crossbow they all hit the target repeatedly after a few shots. In the end crossbows were allowed during modern rifle seasons only.

Each state made their choice and we made ours same as the Pope & Young club did because that's what the majority of the members wanted. But you're right at this point it's beating a very dead horse.

horse


Roger
___________________________
I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along.
- Glen St Charles

*we band of 45-70ers*
 
Posts: 2565 | Location: Washington (wetside) | Registered: 08 February 2005Reply With Quote
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I’ve shot stick and string bows and also compound bows. The compound is ridiculously easy compared to a longbow.


I have been bow hunting for 53 years and started with a long bow now shoot a crossbow due to shoulder and other injuries.

A cross bow is easier to shoot that why I use one now.

I have yet have a animal complain about what I have killed them with.

None complained about my long bow, recurve my many compounds, nor my crossbow.

I agree with Cougarz that what makes them more effective is the ability to bring them to play with out a lot of movement.

Other then that not much.
 
Posts: 17859 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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