Sharps Model 1874 opinions

13 November 2002, 07:49

Brent

quote:
Originally posted by jethro:
Looking for some opinions from you Sharps fans. My dad is considering buying a Sharps 45-70 or 45-something using blackpowder (1874 model). He wants to shoot this thing 200-400 yards. Is this a reasonable expectation for this gun? What's your overall opinion? I think he's looking at the Pedersoli. Anyone have this type?

The Pedersoli is a great gun, probably the best bet for the money. Shiloh, c. Sharps Arms, and Wells also make great '74's.

Shooting a .45-70 or longer to 400 yds with black powder is simple. Hitting something out there, is a bit more challenging, but very doable if one is willing to work at it.

Brent

13 November 2002, 08:20

fla3006

I'd spend a little more money if you can and get the Shiloh. It's a great rifle.

13 November 2002, 11:14

Brent

quote:
Originally posted by fla3006:
I'd spend a little more money if you can and get the Shiloh. It's a great rifle.

I own a Shiloh, an early, Farmington New York, Shiloh. Be advised that not all Shilohs are the same and some care must be taken.

This goes ditto for Pedersolis for different reasons. Both are VERY fine rifles and either one is capable of winning any match.

If you are buying a new or recently made Shiloh or Perdersoli, then it matters not these little details. Older New York Shilohs (and a few Big Timber, MT Shilohs) were chambered with horrendous freebores (0.6" long, and wider in diameter than groove depth). Older Pedersolis may have been barreled with slow twist barrels that may not adequately throw 550 gr bullets out to 1000 yds. These are important details depending on your interests and applications.

Brent

13 November 2002, 11:56

Taos

i have a pedersoli and love it. It will shoot with any of the other BPCR guns I have shot in the past. Don't be at all afraid of buying one of them.

13 November 2002, 15:02

Curtis_Lemay

my father's got a new pedersoli in 45/70. it's worth the money, if you're willing to spend it.

13 November 2002, 23:17

Bad Ass Wallace

I have 3 Pedersoli's, 2 Silhouette models in 45/70 and 40/65 and a "Target" model rolling block

All three are very accurate and are capable of hitting a sheep sized steel plate to 600 yards with black powder. I use a 535gn Lyman Postell in the 45/70 and a Lyman "Snover" 420gn in the 40/65

Be aware that Pedersoli's chambers seem to be cut tight and that Remington brass with its .498 head dia. is better and easier to load than Winchester brass with a head dia of .503.

200 yard 10 shot groups run around 2.5-3 inches regularly. Fitted with a good quality long range vernier, regular hits on silhouettes are common once you get a consistant load and work out the clicks between ranges.

18 November 2002, 07:37

jethro

I forgot to mention, he will be using this to hunt deer at that range, not punch paper. Do you still agree it's good to 200-400 yards for this purpose? How are the 45-90 or 45-120?

19 November 2002, 04:02

Brent

quote:
Originally posted by jethro:
I forgot to mention, he will be using this to hunt deer at that range, not punch paper. Do you still agree it's good to 200-400 yards for this purpose? How are the 45-90 or 45-120?

Hunting deer at 400 yds is NOT what I consider a good idea for a .45-anything. I've shot antelope out to 260 with my .45-100. It didn't go perfectly, and you can read all about it at: My Sharps antelope hunt

The 100 or the 110 is going to top out with around 1350 fps (the .45-10 will be at least 100 fps slower) give or take abit depending on bullet, powder, etc. The 120 is just too much powder and you will not get much, if any, additional fps. You will get more fouling, less accuracy. The .45-90, is in my opinion, about perfect.

If you haven't done so already, take a look at the drops every 5-10 yds at ranges beyond 300 yds. It gets ridiculous and you will miss/wound too often to make it worth while (note that I miss estimated my 260 yd antelope as being 240 yds and shot about NINE INCHES low). A 20 yd mistake at 400 yds would be better actually, since nothing would be hurt except ego.

Next, look at winddrift at 300 yds, and then again at 400 yds. This year, I hit an antelope wounded by another hunter at about 210 yds). It took me two shots to get on it, and I had to hold 2 ft into the wind and still hit it in the hind quarters (just a mild 20-25 mph MT breeze). I'd never have tried that shot had that animal not already been hit by someone else.

Finally, look at the time of flight for a bullet traveling 400 yds. It's a LONG TIME. A bedded deer could get up and take a step in the time it takes for the bullet to leave the gun and reach the target. Nevermind hunter reaction/reflex time. It's just not worth it, and it's just not realistic.

If you have not got a way to check this out with a ballistics program, here is a good place to start: JBM Ballistics Trajectories

Stick in number like a Muzzle velocity of 1350 fps, a bullet weight of 500 grs and a BC of .40. Those are a might optimistic even, but give them a try and you will get to experiment with different cross winds, etc. and see the effects. This is not easy, not even close. Even the most proficient expert target shooters shooting at KNOW DISTANCES, rarely can hit 10 turkeys in a row at 385 m (about 400 yds). And those turkeys are a lot bigger than the kill zone of deer. These are the Master class shooters competing in the national competitions. So, doing this in the field w/o windflags, perfect posture, and absolutely known distances, is gambling way to hard on lady luck for my money.

Make your upper limit 300 yds - AFTER you have practiced for maybe a couple of years.

Brent

19 November 2002, 04:14

Brent

Here, I did it for you. This is a table of the critical values I proposed above. A 1350 fps muzzle velocity (realistic), a 500 gr bullet BC .40 ( a bit optimistic), 15 mp crosswind, 0 head wind (quartering and head winds are real headaches). And an animal standing stock still.

Sighted for a zero at 200yds. Drop at 390 yds is 99 inches. Drop at 400 is 108. That's 9 inches of drop in 10 yds!!!

45" of winddrift at 400 yds!!! Almost 4 ft and for only a perfectly steady and consistent 15 mph wind. You will never get so lucky in the real world.

And then there is over 1 second in flight time for the bullet. ONE second is a LOT of time. Enough time for a deer to do about anything, no matter how calm and peaceful he looked at the instant you decide to pull the trigger; add trigger finger reaction time, lock time, and barrel residence time to the total flight time to get a more accurate estimate.

400 yds deer hunting with a .45-anything is just a bit crazy in my opinion.

Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Windage Lead Time
(yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs) (lbs-sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (sec)
50 1289.3 1845.6 2.86 7.7 0.8 0.0 0.114
60 1277.0 1810.4 2.84 8.8 1.1 0.0 0.137
70 1264.8 1776.1 2.81 9.7 1.5 0.0 0.160
80 1252.9 1742.8 2.78 10.4 1.9 0.0 0.184
90 1241.2 1710.4 2.76 10.8 2.4 0.0 0.208
100 1229.8 1678.9 2.73 11.1 3.0 0.0 0.233
110 1218.3 1647.7 2.71 11.1 3.6 0.0 0.257
120 1207.1 1617.7 2.68 10.8 4.3 0.0 0.282
130 1196.3 1588.9 2.66 10.4 5.0 0.0 0.307
140 1185.9 1561.2 2.63 9.6 5.8 0.0 0.332
150 1175.7 1534.6 2.61 8.7 6.7 0.0 0.357
160 1165.9 1509.0 2.59 7.5 7.6 0.0 0.383
170 1156.3 1484.4 2.57 6.0 8.6 0.0 0.409
180 1147.0 1460.6 2.55 4.3 9.6 0.0 0.435
190 1138.0 1437.8 2.53 2.3 10.7 0.0 0.461
200 1129.3 1415.7 2.51 -0.0 11.9 0.0 0.488
210 1120.7 1394.5 2.49 -2.5 13.1 0.0 0.514
220 1112.5 1373.9 2.47 -5.4 14.3 0.0 0.541
230 1104.4 1354.1 2.45 -8.4 15.6 0.0 0.568
240 1096.6 1335.0 2.43 -11.8 17.0 0.0 0.596
250 1089.0 1316.5 2.42 -15.5 18.4 0.0 0.623
260 1081.5 1298.6 2.40 -19.5 19.8 0.0 0.651
270 1074.3 1281.3 2.39 -23.7 21.3 0.0 0.678
280 1067.3 1264.5 2.37 -28.3 22.9 0.0 0.706
290 1060.4 1248.3 2.35 -33.1 24.5 0.0 0.735
300 1053.7 1232.6 2.34 -38.3 26.1 0.0 0.763
310 1047.2 1217.4 2.33 -43.8 27.8 0.0 0.792
320 1040.8 1202.6 2.31 -49.6 29.6 0.0 0.820
330 1034.6 1188.3 2.30 -55.7 31.4 0.0 0.849
340 1028.5 1174.5 2.28 -62.2 33.2 0.0 0.878
350 1022.6 1161.0 2.27 -69.0 35.1 0.0 0.908
360 1016.9 1147.9 2.26 -76.1 37.0 0.0 0.937
370 1011.2 1135.3 2.25 -83.5 39.0 0.0 0.967
380 1005.7 1122.9 2.23 -91.3 41.0 0.0 0.996
390 1000.4 1111.0 2.22 -99.4 43.0 0.0 1.026
400 995.1 1099.3 2.21 -107.9 45.1 0.0 1.056

19 November 2002, 13:29

<powderfinger>

Jethro,

I have a Pedersoli silhouette model in 45-70 and I
have shot some small groups with it at long range.
While it may not have the fit and finish of a Shiloh Sharps,
it will shoot right with them.

But I have to agree with Brent on this. Lobbing big chunks of lead at animals a long way off should not be attempted. There is too much that could go wrong. I use my sharps for deer hunting, but I hunt in the woods so my shots are close.

Hope this helps,
Zman

22 November 2002, 10:59

<Ommin E.>

Took a bison at 135 yards with my 45-110 this fall without problem. I'd feel comfortable out to 200 yd on moose-size target (with laser range finder)but would have to shoot a lot more to be willing to try something alive at 400 yds.

23 November 2002, 07:59

jethro

Thanks so much guys. I'm not really familiar with this weapon, but your comments sum it up quite well. I'm going to print this string and send it to my dad. It's always great to have feedback on something before you buy it, especially when your expectations start out too high. Disappointment just waiting to happen... Thanks again.

25 November 2002, 05:51

DigitalDan

If you were to consider current U.S. production I think the C. Sharps rifles are higher quality, the company easier to work with, delivery time shorter and prices better. JMHO

04 December 2002, 03:20

Kernel

Dan,

I'm not arguing against your comments on quality as I've only fondled a few of the C. and Shiloh Sharps a couple of times and don't own either (yet!). However, the word is that the wait for a Big Timber Shiloh has been significantly reduced. Further there are plenty of places to find a NIB or used Sharps if you cannot wait. Fur, Fin, and Feather in Ohio and I think there is a dealer in Big Timber to name a couple in addition to magazines like Single Shot Exchange. One thing that swayed me towards the the folks in Big Timber if/when I buy another BPCR is that they stepped up to the plate recently in bringing a few new folks into the "fold" (see the thread at http://talk.shooters.com/room_14/9306.cfm for example). I'm sure the other companies do similar stuff, but I have witnessed, "via the web [Smile]

", this most recent act of decency.

[ 12-03-2002, 18:21: Message edited by: Kernel ]