The Accurate Reloading Forums
Brno Front Guard Screw Bushing
21 June 2001, 20:40
NitromanBrno Front Guard Screw Bushing
A couple of years ago I bought a Brno m98 in 7x57 Mauser for my wife.
I immediately had it bedded as at that time I didn't know how. I recently took it apart to clean it and I found the front guard screw bushing is missing. The thing is; I do not know if it came with one.
Is anyone with one of these rifles willing to take 10 minutes and pull the triggerguard to see if it is there? 'Cause if it is my 'smith left it out when he put it back together.
I need to know this before I make the phone call. I did email the distributor to ask this same thing but there has been no response.
I would sincerely appreciate anyone's help in this.
Thank you,
Roger Rothschild
22 June 2001, 01:40
<RENRAF>Roger, I don't own one of these, but have you tried
http://www.gunpartscorp.com ? They may have parts lists or exploded diagrams that will give you the info.
BTW, you may not remember me, but you gave me some advice with regards to mauser actions a few months back. I got a very nice VZ24 action, no crest, but it's smooth as a baby's butt! Have you built any hi-power 7mm's? I don't like the 7mm Rem, how about 7 STW? I'm still in the "visioning" stage, so I'm pretty open to suggestions.
Thanks,
Mark
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"The greatest griefs are those we cause ourselves"
-Sophicles-
22 June 2001, 02:44
<manhasset>Roger, sorry can't help you on the Brno, but I like the rifles in your post,who makes or sells them. If your Brno is the std. mauser 98 I don't think there is a front guard screw bushing, don't have any in my 98's. take a look at the trigger guard assembly, the bushing is part of the tg.? Bob.
22 June 2001, 07:00
NitromanRENRAF, I have not yet built any rifles on a Mauser. I do have two m1909 Aregentine actions that are gloriously well finished and so slick they feel like they were coated in oil. The crests are as clear as the day they were made. This is why I have not considered building a long range rifle, where would I put the mounts? I would not want to deface that crest. Congratulations on you choice. The VZ-24 is a super action. R. A. Berry has a good 'smith stashed away, if you are nice to him he may even tell you the guys name.
Apparently little known but very, very good. He will not stay unknown for long.
Manhasset,
Website is www.zbrojovka.com or www.zbrojovka.com/a_zbo98.htm Euro-Imports is the importer into the U. S.
Euro-Imports
905 West Main St. E.
El Cajon, CA 92020
(619)442-7005
George Tripes is a very nice gentleman.
I have looked up the Numrich Amrs website and found nothing on the Brno of this model I am going to email te factory. Thanks.
22 June 2001, 07:46
AtkinsonRoger,
Mauser invented the Piller Bed system that we have recently re-invented, oh hum another first for the USA...
Most Mausers only have one piller (sleeve)and that is the rear, such as is the case with your Brno I suspect...I have an earlier Brno and it only has one..
the Design of the Mausers front ring recoil lug that mates with the solid piller of the magazine creates its own front piller when they meet, and the front action screw is tightened up.....
Another Mauser plus...
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Ray Atkinson
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com
22 June 2001, 09:10
<Bill Tompkins>Roger,
I think one of the best solutions for not drilling and tapping on top of the receiver is to use a Griffen & Howe style side mount. We use them frequently on dangerous game rifles or rifles that want to be shot with both glass and open sights. The reason is that this design allows the shooter to take the top part of the mount off with the scope to go to open sights or change scope magnification. The top part is like a regular one piece base but with a dovetail built in on the bottom. The bottom part is screwed into the side of the receiver. Bad explanation, I know. I can make them easier than I can explain them.
Ray is right about the Mauser pillar, there is just one in the back.
Bill
22 June 2001, 09:19
<Pfeifer>Inline with Bill Thompkins suggestion...the Paul Jaeger side mounts are also still available through NECG as Mark Cromwell said he and Dietrich made a run of them before Jaeger's closed... Very nicely styled. I believe Mark said that they only have the single-lever style available (just fine for 7x57) and not the "Magnum" double-lever version.
Jeff Pfeifer
22 June 2001, 15:42
<R. A. Berry>Roger,
That BRNO ZKK 602 that Kevin Jenkins at
www.guntailor.com 
converted to 510 JAB for me had no bushing on the front screw either.
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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB
22 June 2001, 18:49
NitromanGentlemen,
I would like to thank you all for your replies.
What made me concerned about the condition of my wife's rifle were three things: the barrel seems to sit a little low in the barrel channel, it doesn't shoot too well and my Argentine actions have the bushing and Ron, my 602 action has the front bushing. Possibly a mid-model thing, what is your serial number? Mine is 165##.
I thought the barrel sitting low was due to a bushings abcense. Upon more thought I believe the pressure point at the front of the stock was removed to free-float the barrel.
Since as Mr. Atkinson pointed out the triggerguard has the bushing machined in, the receiver (male) mates to the triggerguard (female) and there should be no contact as the top is pulled down onto the wood tightly. I can see faint metal-to-metal contact where there wouldn't be if that pressure point out on the front of the barrel were there.
Lastly the rifle shoots 3" groups. The crown has a chamfer inside and not well done at all. If I had a digital camera I think it would be visible on a close up. My wife who cares not a whit for mechanics, only that it works well, identified what I was talking about in 2 seconds. Still, this wouldn't make the rifle spray bullets. I think it is the front receiver and triggerguard not mating well that is the culprit.
I have decided to make a pressure point out of Acraglass. I will allow the 'glass to set up until mildly stiff then turn in into the barrel channel, then slowly tighten the front screw to bring the wide diameter of the barrel parallel to the channel. This way the lines will all be correct. Once this has hardened up, I will fully bed the length of the barrel.
I am going into Anchorage the first week of July and will have Fowlers Gun and Machine clean up the poor chamfer.
Thanks again for your replies, my mind is much relieved.
[This message has been edited by Roger Rothschild (edited 06-22-2001).]
23 June 2001, 18:33
<R. A. Berry>Roger,
I will go look up the serial #. Mine was used and already glass bedded. A good bedding job is the fix. My seven pound (naked, to use an Atkinsonism) 375 H&H in a Brown Pounder stock (Brown Precision) went from 1.5 MOA to 0.75 MOA with 4 lbs. up pressure at the fore-end tip. It is light barreled. Just can't shoot those fast and furious due to barrel heat changing the POI.
But you know: "One shot, meat...Two shot, maybe...Three shot, heap big sh-t!"
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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB
24 June 2001, 08:29
<R. A. Berry>Roger,
My BRNO ZKK 602 in 510 JAB has a serial number of 101XX, so it is a bit older than yours. Mine is pillar bedded in a McMillan synthetic with recoil lug on the barrel (McGowen Stainless). If it ever had a bushing on the front it was gone before I knew of it, and I don't need it anyway.
Congratulations, you are the postee of my one thousandth post. No applause please.
Going for 1001 Arabian posts now. I really do have a life, however. I am on call at the hospital for the weekend and just relaxing on the web, because I can't be where I would rather be. 
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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB
24 June 2001, 11:07
AtkinsonRoger,
Before you really screw up that rifle, try this stuff with shims on the recoil lug surface, first portion of the barrel under the chamber area and tang..lifting the whole gun up a hair...Use the tangs to get it to shoot, then you know where to go...If you start glassing and it doesn't shoot, what then??? dig it out?? messy,messy!
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Ray Atkinson
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com
24 June 2001, 18:42
Bill LeeperRoger,
My ZKKs did have a seperate bushing at the front as well as the rear. The purpose is I guess to keep one from crushing the wood as can happen with the mauser 98 with it's barely adequate tang. The problem is that with such a spacer the screws can be tight yet the barreled action can be loose in the stock. By the way in a "pillar bedded" rifle the pillars are effectively part of the stock since they are glued into it not a loose piece like the mauser bushing Ray Atkinson is so fond of! (Sorry Ray!) Regards, Bill.
25 June 2001, 04:33
AtkinsonBill Leeper,
HORSEFEATHERS!! A piller is a piller and it serves one purpose and that is to create a situation where the wood cannot be crushed by screw pressure..The bottom metal ( magazine )of a Mauser has a solid piller that mates to the button that is on the Mauser recoil lug that the screw fits and when properly inletted serves the same purpose as any piller..Where do you think piller bedding came from?? Now if you wanted to glass the Mauser piller in thats fine but I see no reason to do so cuz you couldn't take the bottom metal out..or I have seen it cut off the bottom metal and the piller glassed in. What I see here is another shot taken at the old Mauser and another failure to hit the target... 
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Ray Atkinson
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com
25 June 2001, 07:40
NitromanMr. Atkinson, I understand what you are talking about. How come I never thought of that? Hmm.
I will make some thin shims from Diet Pepsi cans and get this done today.
Thanks for the very excellent suggestion!
27 June 2001, 18:40
Bill LeeperRay Atkinson,
Horsefeathers indeed! A pillar is indeed a pillar but this is not of course what the Mauser has. It has spacers. A pillar supports the action and establishes distance. A spacer, such as those possessed by the mauser, establishes distance only and support is provided by the stock of which the spacers are not a part. I don't know who developed the first true pillar bedding but I don't think it was mauser! This is not actually a deliberate shot at the Mauser but it none the less a centre hit
With the development of modern epoxies the bedding of rifles on Pepsi cans etc. became unnecessary. Regards, Bill.
28 June 2001, 05:19
AtkinsonBL,
Sorry Leeper your out to lunch, a "properly bedded" mauser IS piller bedded, when the button meets the female piller it becomes a steel piller, the recoil shoulder is even steel and the whole works is unatended by wood or glass, end of story. Common knowledge among Gunsmiths and the Mauser has allways had a standard piller in the rear hole, since the beginning, and thats where the whole thing came from...
As to the pepsi shims, that is a good way to find a cure for a sick rifle, when its found, then you toss the shims because you then know HOW to bed the rifle correctly...That way you don't have to dig all that glass out when a newly glassed rifle doesn't perform, saves a lot of wear and tear on new stocks....
I'm sorry if my gunsmithing doesn't meet with your approval, but it works for me and I will continue to use my methods, based on that. You may also use yours.
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Ray Atkinson
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com
28 June 2001, 13:11
<R. A. Berry>Tisk, tisk, Ray!!!
Bill Leeper is absolutely correct. I am afraid you should admit it Ray. You are wrong for the first time in your life.
There is nothing wrong with trying the shim thing as a preliminary test before doing some good bedding, however.
Really, Ray, even if the Mauser bottom metal is bottomed out on the bushings or whatever integral features within the receiver and bottom metal and magazine, it still does not assure the fixation that a pillar integral to the stock would. One could still have a lot of play and rocking between barreled action and stock.
The action and bottom metal should be snugging up against an incompressible pillar that is integral to the stock, and ne'er the twain shall meet between bottom metal and receiver.
I understand what you are saying Bill. Ray, the Mauser system never was a pillar bedding system, was it?
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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB
28 June 2001, 13:49
AtkinsonI don't understand why you guys can't see what is happening in the Mauser...I'll try one more time to explain !!!
the bottom metal on a mauser, thats the floorplate has a 1" (approx.) post that goes up the wood and meets the bottom of the mausers recoil lug...On the bottom of the recoil lug there is a button with a screw hole in it and the two are screwed together forming a solid fitted piller, anyway you cut it that is a piller and it is pulled together under great pressure of the screw and it is solid steel. like ANY piller keeps the wood from crushing when the screw is tightened. the mauser has a steel tube in the rear that keeps the rear from being crushed.....
For the life of me I cannot understand why you cannot see that, unless perhaps you don't have any Mausers or they have been modified as some are....or you just don't really know what a piller is...A piller is a piller a hollow post from the recoil lug of action to the floorplate, nothing more and nothing less.....You just have a picture in your mind of a piece of aluminum from Brownells that fits in a Rem. 700 and it also goes from the action to the bottom metal....
I give up if this doesn't make since to you guys,
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Ray Atkinson
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com
28 June 2001, 13:56
AtkinsonPLAY, Play, Berry there is no play in a properly bedded Mauser rifle, how could there be?? you pull the two together under tremoundous pressure until they stop just like you do in a piller bedded Rem. 700....when steel meets steel thats all it will go in either the 700 or the Mauser and they both had better be properly inletted or they both will flop.
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Ray Atkinson
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com
28 June 2001, 14:15
AtkinsonAnd another thing the piller bedding system for the Rem 700 was discovered by Tom Gilman and Keesie Kimball over a few toddys one night...when Tom told Keesie they needed a way to keep the Rem 700 from crushing wood and loosening up in the middle of a match and Keesie said well do them like a Mauser, the Mauser is designed to stop the crushing and to keep the action level and transfer the recoil to the magazine box. and that was the birth of the piller bedded Rem 700 my friends. If you doubt this you can contact Jack Belk over at HA, he is the worlds foremost Mauser expert and last years president of the Custom Gun Guild......
This is all I have to say on the subject 
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Ray Atkinson
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com
28 June 2001, 14:17
<Hubie>quote:
Originally posted by R. A. Berry:
the Mauser system never was a pillar bedding system, was it?
I beg to differ. The Mauser system, at least in the 1898 versions, have ALWAYS been a pillar bedding system. Now, having said that, on most of the Mausers I have examined the "rear pillar" was always too short, I suppose for reasons known only to the beancounters of the country involved... I have found through experience, it's relatively easy to achieve a 50% or so reduction in group size on military rifles simply by PROPER BEDDING!
28 June 2001, 14:26
<R. A. Berry>Ray and Hubie, a pillar is not a pillar unless it is epoxied into the stock.
I own a dozen "Mausers": an FN Mauser, six Whitworth Mark X's, three CZ 550's, a Brno ZKK 602, and a BBK-02. I have had military surplus Mauser's come and go. I read books about Mausers. I love to shoot and hunt with Mausers.
Many gunsmiths will throw away those bushings or spacers and install pillar bedding, even with the wonderful Mauser.
I am at a loss to explain this concept any further. Maybe Bill Leeper will respond again?
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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB
[This message has been edited by R. A. Berry (edited 06-28-2001).]
28 June 2001, 17:47
Bill LeeperOften it seems that some of the more mature shooters become more and more obstinate with time. The refusal of some to recognize the difference between a pillar and a spacer is solid evidence of this. Still to continue to try and explain this borders on torment. Once more I am reminded of the saying about old dogs etc!
Regards, Bill.
28 June 2001, 23:22
NitromanGentlemen!
Jeez Louise!!
Ok, I used six (6) slips of Diet Pepsi can. They measured approximatley 0.020". I put four coats of release agent on and bedded the barrel. Perfect. It goes together with a tiny "snick". The lines are correct and level with the forearm wood. I would say around 0.15 inches of wood was removed from the forearm to float the barrel.
Now, I removed the shims and bedded the action. The whole rifle put together with the screws tightened makes a hum when balanced on my left hand and smacked on the butt. I think this is where you say, "it's solidly together".
There is now around 0.010" epoxy where the shims were. This means there is a little space between the receiver and the pillar in the triggerguard. With the pressure spread out due to the nice bedding job I did (pat, pat, pat) I am looking forward to getting this on the bench and seeing what it'll do.
'Till then you gents retire to the study and take Happy Pills.
I will post results.
28 June 2001, 23:30
<Don G>I agree that the Mauser is not pillar bedded.
The front and rear bolts establish metal-to-metal spacing but the action is free to shift up-and-down if the stock shrinks with age. I have seen this movement in at least half the old Mausers I pick up.
Don
29 June 2001, 02:19
<DuaneinND>I think Don has hit the nail on the head, a pillar becomes a spacer when it is loose in the stock. Ray is right in the part that in a properly fitted stock, the front "extension" of the magazine box acts like a pillar and keeps the wood from being compressed by the action, but unlike a glued in pillar, can become loose if the wood shrinks because there is no longer any wood to sqeeze between the bottom of the receiver and the mag box. The present system of glued in pillars is an improvement of the Mauser system and in no way diminishes the fine designs of Mr Mauser, but is a credit to his legacy.
29 June 2001, 03:04
AtkinsonRA,
How would you go about throwing away the front Piller in a Mauser magazine box, cut it OFF??
Who made the rule that a piller had to be glassed in? So if I glassed the bottom metal into the stock THEN my Mauser would be piller bedded, correct? or if I cut the upward extenstion off and glued it in, THEN my Mauser would be piller bedded, correct?
What is the name of that 1" upward extended piece of steel in my Mauser bottom metal that goes up to and contacts the recoil lug and has the fore screw going through it, I'll bet it's a whatch-a-ma-call-it,correct?
Some of the old 100 year old Mausers did rock and needed to be re-inletted, but I have seen 700's with a short piller that did the same and had to be re-inletted.
Now, Leeper, if the fact that I'm convinced that I'm right (and the Custom Gun Guild agrees with me,) but it doesn't agree with YOU and means that my statments here have no meaning or substance then why do we have these discussions? So, if the right to an opinnion is void on this thread and has reduced itself to your "scarcasims" then I have no further commits on this subject....
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Ray Atkinson
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com
29 June 2001, 05:50
<R. A. Berry>Thank you Don G and DuaineinND. Ray, I think this dog ought to go back to sleep.
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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB
29 June 2001, 12:27
AtkinsonWell, I have tried to maintain an intelligent conversation, I have supported my claim with facts, I have advised who concieved the pillar system in the 700 and why they did it.. I have quoted Webster in that a piler is an upright post, I have carefully explained its working process and why it works other than the obviousness of not crushing wood, and how the Mauser is responsible for its existence. I have suggested some contact the custom gun guild ex president and an expert on Mauser....
I have received in return sarcasim, cutesy remarks and been told a piller to be a piller must be "glued in", now thats scientific...That being the case, I wonder how much glue is necessary to make a pillar, a pinpoint of a gallon??
I would think the posts would have some substance to prove me wrong or at least an argument or some support other than lip service, as opposed to absolutely not one fact or iota of how otherwise a pillar came about.
This thread is such that I will not waste my time trying to enlighten the less than knowledgable...rather let them wallow in their own muck.
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Ray Atkinson
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com
After a 35 mile, 90 minute commute home in a wicked thunderstorm, there's just nothing better than shaking up a dry martini, loading the pipe and reading a thread like this. I get incredible entertainment and knowledge transfer sitting in my big leather chair winding down from the day...
29 June 2001, 17:39
Bill LeeperThis has been fun though Atkinson does tend to get a little grumpy. I still don't claim to know who (apart from Paul Mauser as some would claim)developed pillar bedding. I suspect it was developed concurrently by a number of accuracy minded smiths any of whom could lay claim to it. I refer of course to pillar bedding as we understand it today rather than the Mauser spacer system.
It seems to have been sometime in the mid-seventies that the term "pillar bedding" became one of the buzz phrases some smiths like to use. When I first started glass bedding which was considerably before this I had not heard the term. I was showed the technique by a gunsmith in Kamloops BC (name of Art Bourne)in 1977 of casting fiberglas pillars into the stock to prevent compression of the wood. It was around this time as well that the use of aluminum pillars became popular. I recall that Seeley Masker was ambivalent about their use because he felt they were difficult to install stress free.
I use metal pillars in some cases where the bedding surface is limited like the Mauser tang or the pre-war m70 tang. Otherwise I'm happy to stick with glass as Art showed me 24 years ago. By the way the metal pillars are always glued into the stock so are no longer just spacers! Ha Ha! Regards, Bill
30 June 2001, 02:50
<DuaneinND>Ray: just remember it is hard to soar like an eagle when you are working with a bunch of turkeys!
30 June 2001, 13:33
<Hubie>quote:
Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
This has been fun though Atkinson does tend to get a little grumpy. Perhaps it comes with the name. (I'm also an Atkinson)...
I still don't claim to know who (apart from Paul Mauser as some would claim)developed pillar bedding.
I don't either-but I don't think any others had near the influence of Mauser..
However, at the risk of beating a dead horse, we may be arguing semantics. I agree that glassed pillars are a good thing, and an improvement over the orginal Mauser system. And now, I use it both front an rear... However, that is a fairly recent development. Before glass, everyone had to rely on plain old craftsmanship to properly bed a rifle. And I don't think the advent of glass suddenly made "pillars" possible..
30 June 2001, 14:09
AtkinsonLeeper,Berry, and Don
Caldonia! what make yo head so hard??
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Ray Atkinson
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com
30 June 2001, 14:39
<Don G>Ray, Ray! get away from that wheel barrow, you know you don't understand machinery!
30 June 2001, 16:16
<R. A. Berry>Ray,
Re: "Leeper, Berry, and Don"
Thanks for the compliments. I keep good company, aye? I cannot claim a falsehood to be the truth. Semantics? Not quite. It's fun to read your posts when you get riled. Just can't admit you are wrong, aye? Flame on!
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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB
01 July 2001, 04:23
AtkinsonI think I got you three figured out, ya"ll went to Africa and got bit by a blue gum, makes ya crazy, any of you been sweating around the annus? thats a sure sign.
No flame just tryin to help the poor and uninformed. but considering your newly diagnosed desease and knowing that it, like some veneral deseases will effet the brain, I guess I am going to do the right thing an humor you poor sick souls and agree to disagree, thats just the very best I can do, considering the fact that you three are my very best friends, and favorite posters.
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Ray Atkinson
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com