Optimum Bolt Handle

18 November 2002, 09:29

<Rod@MRC>

Optimum Bolt Handle

Since the PH (M1999 - Professional Hunter) is still in CAD, I would like to start a discussion about the perfect bolt handle. One of our OEM prospects meantioned that if they bought our LA, the first thing they would do is cut off the handle and install their own. Another custom builder said a swept-back handle is a great knuckle buster on a heavy recoiling rifle.

We copied the M70 handle ball location so our LA and SA would fit in aftermarket M70 stocks. For the PH, we don't have to go there, so we'll entertain the best ideas within the limits of the lost wax casting process.

Let's talk about handle length, vertical angle, horizontal angle, ball size and shape, etc. We're thinking it should be straight (no sweep-back) and longer, with the bottom of the ball coming very close to a plane coincident with the upper edge of the triggerguard.

What's your opinion?

18 November 2002, 10:06

edi malinaric

Why not make it with a spoon handle a la Mannlicher - more area for engraving.

My 9.3x62 has such a handle and my pre-64 Winchester M 70 has a ball. I have found nothing to choose between the two. Maybe it's a bit easier to slide the "spoon" handle into a carry bag.

edi

18 November 2002, 10:10

Dave James

Rod,I know nothing about smithing,but was always amazed at how fast you could operate the old 303's brits,have been told its because the bolt is just right,when moveing the hand,I like that straight handle and a little larger than norm ball on the end of the bolt

18 November 2002, 10:55

HunterJim

Rod,

I shoot two .375 H&H rifles, one a M70 pattern and the other a BRNO M602.

I recommend you look at the BRNO M602 action for bolt size, configuration and shape, and also consider the built in ghost ring aperture sight as a feature of the PH action.

jim dodd

18 November 2002, 11:23

Paul Libby

quote:
Originally posted by Rod@MRC:

What's your opinion?[/QB]

Put it on the left side of the bolt.

18 November 2002, 14:46

D Humbarger

Obendorf pear shape so that it "rolls " in palm the way it is supposed to.

18 November 2002, 14:57

John Frazer

quote:
Originally posted by plibby:
Put it on the left side of the bolt.

I was in a fairly remote rural gun store just a few hours ago whose owner says he sells lots of Tikka rifles because they're the only left-handed short action at a decent price.

My personal favorite bolt handle is on my Beretta Mato (same as the Dakota 97, I assume). Also similar to the pre-'64 Model 70, which is my second favorite.

John

John

18 November 2002, 15:52

jeffeosso

leave it EXACTLY like the model 70, and let people cut it how they want to.

The reason being, if someone buys two actions, does a 416 rem on one, and a 500 jeff on the other, it CAN feel exactly the same, no matter what.

If they want it diffrent, it's what, $25 to have their smith bend/replace it. I think this will fall very squarely into a blonde vs redheads... both are great, but I know reds are better...

jeffe

18 November 2002, 17:04

<KBGuns>

^^^ What Jeffe said. ^^^

Kristofer [Big Grin]

18 November 2002, 17:14

DavidReed

I would keep it straight(not swept back). I find it easier to manipulate a straight bolt handle. As soon as the trigger is released the bolt knob is right there for your hand to palm and operate. Also I would also make the ball larger in radius for better feel in the palm.

[ 11-23-2002, 07:29: Message edited by: DavidReed ]

19 November 2002, 00:08

<Hux>

I'm with Bear Claw, the pear shaped knob is nicest. Seem you're going with the Double Square bridge (good choice and thanks) stick with the Mauser style bolt as well.

Angle as on the 602 is a good starting point and as said before a custom smith will change it to suit an individual anyway.

Well done MRC

19 November 2002, 09:05

Robgunbuilder

My vote is for a pear shaped straight bolt on the magnum action. Just make sure there is enough clearance for a low mounted scope.-Rob

19 November 2002, 10:54

redial

As long as it's LONG enough, I don't care much what shape the knob/cone/spoon is.

Speaking only as a target shooter, every match rifle I've had built over the years first had to have its handle reconfigured. Size DOES matter [Razz]

Even so, I understand folks will want shorter handles to fit in scabbards, etc.

Just my two cents

Redial

19 November 2002, 11:13

<allen day>

For working the action quickly from the shoulder, no factory bolt handle shape has ever beaten the grace or utility of the Winchester Model 70. The post-1964 version is best, simply because it clears low-mounted scopes better than the pre-64; the knurling, however, is something I could live without on the current M-70 bolt knob.

The best custom bolt handle ever created is from Tom Burgess of Kalispell, Montana. For quality, simplicity, speed, gracefulness, and utility his are impossible to beat in my opinion. I can supply a photo of same if you'd like.

Functionally (yes, I've tried 'em) I think the straight-down bolt handles are an abomination. Bolt handles that are made to work with optimum efficiency from the shoulder NEED to be swept back, not straight.

AD

[ 11-19-2002, 02:17: Message edited by: allen day ]

19 November 2002, 12:51

Atkinson

Make mine a Talley and straight down on a big bore, in fact any caliber...I have long arms so that works well for me..I can get along with a M-70 swept back but I don't really care for them as they will bite you from time to time..The butterknife probably doesn't go well on a big bore DGR, but then I can get along with them well enough and have had no problems on my 404 Obendorf...At any rate bolt handles are not a big deal in my book as long as they look good and work.

19 November 2002, 16:39

<Rod@MRC>

Allen: Tom certainly has his input on this subject. I spend two hours at his shop last Thursday. Strangely enough, he wanted us to go AWAY from the swept back handle for this action. Before we made such a decision, it made sense to touch the pulse of the riflemen out there. So far, it's all over the place - here and elsewhere.

19 November 2002, 17:37

<MontanaMarine>

I like the ergonomics of the bolt handle on my A-bolt .338WM.

Both of my Rem700 have the Badger Ord. tactical knob installed, which is great on my rifles (.308/30-06). They give a huge amount of scope clearance, and are easy to manipulate in cold, or gloved hands.

MM

19 November 2002, 18:02

<JBelk>

Rod---

I find that interesting-----everything from a spoon handle to a crutch tip. [Smile]

Copy Granite Mountain. [Smile]

19 November 2002, 18:54

Brent Moffitt

I like the swept back style myself, but never have been bit by one either. My Ruger 416wby is the stiffest recoiler I've shot though. From Saeeds vidios of the T-Rex being fired, it should be swept forward, [Big Grin]

I don't think anything will help with that monster though.

I'll make it easy, offer a bolt in either style for it, just decide on angle and length. [Smile]

Just think of how many more would be happy. [Wink]

20 November 2002, 03:39

<allen day>

Rod, you're keeping good company, to say the very least!

I have several rifles (Milliron and Echols-built) with Burgess metalwork in my collection, and I've been absolutely in awe of Tom's work for the last twenty-five years: Well before I could afford it! The more you study his efforts, the more his genius comes shining through.

To expand just a bit on my previous point, in my experience straight bolt handles require the shooter to reach out a bit too much for my liking, and this movement has nothing to do with length of pull. Pistol grip shape does indeed influence the speed with which the bolt may be manipulated, especially with straight handles. The tighter grips (Dale Goens style) speed the process up significantly, and offer better control. For general use, I think most shooters who are true riflemen find the swept back bolt handle to be the most practical.

AD

22 November 2002, 07:16

Atkinson

So now Allen one cannot be a true rifleman unless he uses a swept back bolt handle just like you do? Get a life!! My hand comes striaght up from the trigger to a stright down bolt...Your eaten up with technical hog wash as to one being faster, that could only be measured in multi multi minniseconds and could never be a factor in the field for Gods sake. I think you read too much.

22 November 2002, 13:38

TGetzen

My $0.02

If your target audience is classic Mauser style big bore shooters, down at a 60 to 70 degree angle, with no backsweep, would be the best. It's relatively easy to give a straight handle some sweep, not so easy to get a swept handle back to straight (unless you cut it off!).

I'm fairly inexperienced with freehand big bore shooting, but even I can rack off three quick shots (quick enough to get the range officer pissed off), with a Mauser 98 set up like this.

I have another Mauser that I shelled out a few bucks to have modified with a Dakota cast (swept back) handle, guess what, it's getting a Talley to replace it.

Todd

22 November 2002, 15:37

<JJohnston>

Whatever you go with, it should stick out farther than the handle on most rifles seems to. I guess I have pudgy hands, because I never seem to be able to get enough bite on it with the edge of my palm. In fact, I've stopped trying the palm method - I use my fingers. A longer handle would provide more to get hold of, and increase cocking leverage. Actually, I like the looks of that Badger Ordnance handle.

Naturally, a bolt handle that sticks out more is more likely to get damaged. It's a compromise the individual has to make. How about offering a couple of choices?

23 November 2002, 10:28

Customstox

Rod,
A swept back handle may be a few milliseconds faster to get ahold of one when I open the bolt but it does have some drawbacks. When my face is positioned at the exreme of the eye relief on a Leupold scope and I retract the bolt, my hand "gets" in my face and it is not only distracting but a detriment to staying on target, a straighter handle does not. For that reason I prefer to have a straighter bolt handle, particularly with a rifle that would be used for dangerous game. I find that stock grip shape has no real world difference in speed relative to moving the bolt. I prefer a more pear shaped knob also but that is not a big deal.

As it is in CADD, you might superimpose some of the scopes and their objective and eyepiece tubes that are normally used today on DG rifles and see what kind of clearance will be necessary to your bolt handle. You have the best ability to do this with your computer. In the past this was a trial and error method and our electronic world makes it a lot easier for you now.

By the way, if you knurl your bolt knob, send a long one of those rubber thumb covers that you can get from a stationary store for $.25 apiece. Bolt knobs like that or checkered panels are just like rasps and gouge the crap out of any stock they come in contact with, be it wood or glass. I have a box of those in my safe and all the rifles in there have them in place.

23 November 2002, 11:45

<JBelk>

quote:
Originally posted by Customstox:
.........send a long one of those rubber thumb covers that you can get from a stationary store for $.25 apiece. ......

Thumb cover??? I thought they were condoms for CEOs and bean counters!!

23 November 2002, 11:56

Customstox

Jack,
An outfit in Chicago that specialized in surplus electronic stuff (believe it was called Wierd Scientific) once sold these that were smooth and listed them as "bummer of a condom." Had to have some, they fit well, lol.

23 November 2002, 15:04

<Rod@MRC>

All: Thanks for the volume of contribution so far. It's helped a lot, and given us some ideas we hadn't thought about.

A good comment was that the smith could bend the handle back but would find it difficult to go the other way...tends to support a straight handle decision. A pear-shaped with a slightly bigger radii at the big end also sounds like a good way to go.

We do not intend to knurl or engrave the ball (pear).

It's hard to simulate a scope mounted on unfinished bases with who knows what rings and what diameter scope, but we'll try to develop a keep-out zone and this might be easier if the handle is a bit longer and the bend outward a bit further down the handle - and if the first part of the dogleg has a falls away from the bolt at a relatively sharp angle.

Don't feel the subject is closed yet. We've at least a couple of weeks yet before we spin off the STL files for the RPS system.

24 November 2002, 11:16

Atkinson

Start making them longer and they will rap the knuckles. Have them sticking out like a wart and ugly won't sell, they grab brush and don't fit well in a saddle scabbard...Just look at any custom made Mauser at the guild show and use that as a guide...stright down on big bores and either way on 300's down...I still prefer striaght down for myself on any bolt gun.

24 November 2002, 14:58

TGetzen

Rod,

WRT the shape of the ball, I would think hard about the pear shaped part. Again, it's very easy to make something like a Talley, which comes round, into a pear -- but tough to make a pear round! Thirty seconds on the disc sander, 5 mintues with files and emory paper, presto - pear.

I find that I now prefer them round, but have 2 'pears.'

Todd

25 November 2002, 04:11

<JBelk>

Todd---

The Talley is pure pear shaped. I think you're thinking of "flattened" like a Remington.

25 November 2002, 04:18

TGetzen

I guess I'm confused by what a pear shape is; I think of it as a round ball flattened on the base, the best example I have before me being the cast Dakota bolt handle. The Talley next to it has a perfectly round ball knob. [Confused]

25 November 2002, 04:42

Customstox

Todd, you must be getting a different Talley that I get from Brownells, mine are shaped like a pear, check the catalog, it is far from perfectly round and is the best example of pear shaped. Take a look at the Gun Parts Corporation bolt, that is round.

[ 11-24-2002, 19:48: Message edited by: Customstox ]

25 November 2002, 05:22

<JBelk>

Here's the differences----

From top it bottom---- Crudely flattened round knob, 1909 Argentine round, and Talley pear.

25 November 2002, 08:09

D Humbarger

This is a true Oberndorf bolt to a "Mauser Original" from my collection. Waffenfabrik Mauser-Oberndorf A/N (on the Neckar)

25 November 2002, 08:41

TGetzen

I'm at work right now, so when I got home maybe I'll try putting all three on the scanner -- the unmodified Talley, the Dakota, and the Talley w/ the ball I flattened. Then I'll have to figure out how to post it...
Todd

27 November 2002, 03:08

TGetzen

Well here goes -- I'll try it:

Let's see if it works. The loose one is a Talley as they come from Brownells. The one on the bolt, should have been left that way!

Todd

Edited:
So proud! [sniff] Thanks Doug for your help.

[ 11-26-2002, 18:10: Message edited by: Todd Getzen ]