Have been thinking about setting up to do some test rust blueing. Brownell's carries two solutions: 1) Brownell's Classic Rust Blue and 2) PILKINGTON Classic American Rust Blue.

What color blue to these solutions deliver?

Is there any rust blue that gives the lovely royal blue that can be done with molten nitre salts?

Thanks,

Mike,

I havent seen a rust blue solution that would produce nitre blue color.

I have used Pilkingtons. Its pretty weak. For slow rust blueing I prefer Mark LEe Slow Rust #3 or Gun Goddess.

I've done really nice rust bluing with the Neidner formula, but also nice results with Plum Brown, with boiling between coats, so the brown goes black. The Plum Brown gave me a more satin finish than the Neidner formula. I aso use a 1750 rpm really fine wire wheel for carding between coats. The nitre blue doesn't wear well, I found.

Dear Mike:

Like Mr. Soverns, I have used Mark Lee Rust Bluing on a number of Mauser actions and Pac Nor barrels. It seems to work quite well. Do follow the directions to the letter, only use distilled water from new jugs and use the thick dishwashing gloves so you don't get body oil on the steel surfaces from fingerprints.

Also, make sure that you fill all the holes and threaded areas in with permatex/silicon beforehand. Lastly, I have found that sanding to a finer finish than 320 grit, makes the rusting less efficient, and produces a dark grey color instead of black.

I did sand to a 400 grit finish in restoring a Lyman 48 M aperture sight, and it came out a neat dark grey which contrasts nicely with the rust-black 1908 Mauser receiver on which it will be installed.

If you have any further questions, please PM me.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

PILKINGTON Classic American Rust Blue

I have been using this and have gotten mostly a charcoal grey color, one set of cap and ball revolvers I did had a slight brown color. Years ago I used a belguim blue from dixie it worked very well and was close to that nice black color.
Dean

You can get a very deep black with Pilkingtons, I like it. Its all in the way you put in on and how long you rust it. I now make my own fron Angiers book. Try rusting for short periods of time and light applications of solutions, works great and is very fast too.
Steve

I've used Pilkington's on a Yugo and a Swed. Both came out a nice black color. The edges are the toughest parts to color.

Coat and let sit for 4hrs, boil, card, repeat. Took about 6 coats.

Rich

My experience mirrors that of Bill Soverns.

I've settled on Mark Lee's #3, but from what I've read of others' experience......Pilkington, Lee #3, and then Gun Goddess in order of aggressiveness.

If I ever found a particular action difficult to take or hold the bluing.....I'd try Gun Goddess.

My biggest improvement in quality and consistency was a using a damp box. I don't think you can reliably blue without one. Particularly in areas like Wisconsin where natural humidity varies so drastically from season to season.

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
Have been thinking about setting up to do some test rust blueing. Brownell's carries two solutions: 1) Brownell's Classic Rust Blue and 2) PILKINGTON Classic American Rust Blue.

What color blue to these solutions deliver?

Is there any rust blue that gives the lovely royal blue that can be done with molten nitre salts?

Thanks,

Brownells also offers Laurel Mtn Barrel Brown and Degreaser. I've used it on a number of slow rust bluing jobs and it gives a very nice black/blue-black. And there's no problem shipping it normal mail.

Laurel Mtn barrel Brown and Degreaser

I like the Pilkington color the best-more of the blue you are after. BUT, I had toruble getting it to bite (in my damp box) on different alloy steels. on old guns with simple 90 year old steel, it works great.

I use Gun Goddess on rifles and Laurel Mountain Forge on shotguns. The LMF is more of a "black" and I think it looks more appropriate on double barrels. The GG goes on rifles. The LMF has been the easiest and most forgiving of any solutions I have used.

But i think a small degree of "ease of use" has to do with soemthing that can only be detected with a 6th sense that we don't posses. Like stock finishes-I can not get Tru-Oil to work to save my life, yet others get good results with it. Maybe I am just superstitous, but i am sticking with that theory!

Interesting thread: I've rust blued in WA, CA, WI, and WY I've come to the comclusion tha nothing works well in all climatic conditions...with the dry atmosphere in WY, I really had a hell of a time...here in Tacoma WA, anything I apply rusts like crazy! Best bet: try them all in your locality...tried the Neidner formula and used it for years, just one bunch of trouble with no apparent advantage over "store bought"

Is Gun Goddess available anywhere? I cannot find it with a Google search.

Thanks,

Mike

Gun Goddess is available from Half Moon Rifle Shop located in Columbia Falls, Montana. Jim Baiar is the owner. # 406-892-4409.

I have used it on a hobby basis and it worked very well for me. I used my small basement shower as a damp box and degreased steel wool to card it with. It gave me a nice soft black color that is very pleasant and very durable as well. I did not bead blast or anything like that. Just polished with paper to 400 grit and then blued.

Im in a dry area,

Anyone have ideas of building a cheap sweat box for rust blueing? Well maybe just the trick for the sweat.

GSP7, I'm wondering the same. I found this link. Perhaps some will comment on it's usefullness.



http://www.winrest.com/blueinstructions.html

This is mine. A copy of a John Bivins model from Rifle Magazine.

Heat for the water pan is a light bulb. Another light bulb further up the box to cancel out high humidity that may cause "sweating" on the metal. I use a much smaller bulb there than in this picture. Both bulbs are on a rheostat for heat control.

The dimensions of this box are much bigger than I need, but they were taken directly from Bivins' plans. I presume he routinely blued long black powder barrels.

22WRF,

Thanks for the phone number. I'll call them!

Grandview,

The Bivin's article you mention is supposed to be found in the Gunsmithing Tips & Projects (1990) book which is a compilation of articles from Rifle Magazine. It is out of print and not available from Brownell's or on Amazon or eBay.

Do you happen to have the plans? Might you share them?

Thanks!

Took me awhile to find my copy of the book. I took some quick pics of the pertinent data.

Bivins went through a couple iterations of damp boxes. The first pic is the dimensions of the box when using a heat plate; the second is a diagram of the light bulb box; the third is the supporting text.

You should be able to either print or download these pictures. Let me know if there are problems.......or if I can assist in any way.
dimensions
diagram
description

Grandview,

That makes life easier for sure. Bless you Sir!

THANKS!

How much of the final result is product used and how much is the technique? I prefer more of a blue than black color. It looks like I may finally get a proper shop built soon and want to give this a shot.

quote:

With rust bluing, technique is nearly everything!

I guess I better practice on my relatives guns first.

Steven is very correct in that most of what you read on the internet is wrong. I rust for very short periods of time after my first rust....very short as in the first rust is 2 hours. After that usually 30 minutes then down to 15. This gives the very shiney finish Steven reffered to earlier. The other thing I find wrong with most net directions is the polishing. I take mine to at least 400 grit and you can see the difference.
Steve

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Steven is very correct in that most of what you read on the internet is wrong.

I'm not sure I'd categorize most of the Internet info as "wrong"...........but certainly "conflicting" perhaps. My approach, as far as any contribution on forums like this, is to convey what an amateur like myself can do.....and reliably expect. And although I certainly have less experience rust bluing than the many professionals that contribute here (thankfully.....and may there number increase), I've experimented enough with different procedures and solutions until I can reliably produce a blued finish that I'm satisfied with.

To SDH's comments on the matte finish: I agree, rust bluing won't produce the matte finish that is found on the "beaded and dipped" hot blue. Nor do I want it to. My coarse description of that finish is "dimpled and painted"......which I contrast to "frosted with a sheen" that I want on my rust blued metal. And that may be a confusing or inadequate explanation.

I have experimented with shorter rusting periods that skb describes.........actually, through impatience more than design. And, in fact, it did produce a more shiny finish......my guess would be that the rusting process doesn't have time to etch the metal as much. I could be wrong. In any event, I prefer the finish that results from longer rusting periods.

And just to add more confusion to info on the Internet......for my rusting solution, and my damp box, and my geographical area, I rust for 4-5 hours. Lots of variables.

Things I do that work for me:
. Polish to 320, then "wipe" with a wire wheel.
. Meticulously degrease......I use Simple Green and boil in distilled water..
. Use surgical gloves always when handling metal.
. Use folded clean cotton for applying solution.....cotton balls may contain chemicals that contaminate.
. Change water for every boiling session.
. Dry metal with a hair dryer when removing from boiling water.
. Apply rusting solution to cold metal rather than warm.
. Use less wet applicator for each successive solution application. (This is kind of a "feel" process.....wet enough to flow when applied, but not dry enough to start to rub off previous blue)
. Use wire wheel and small wire brush for carding. I don't think steel wool is aggressive enough.

I remember having a conversation with Chic Worthing a few years ago about rust bluing. If the process was really reliable science, or if chanting incantations was required.....or at least desirable.

I occasionally chant.

One other tip....if you see a drop of oil come up to the surface of your boiling tank, it's forced out of some crevice by the heat. DO NOT pull the barrels out. Take a strip of paper towel, lay it on the surface of the water after turning down the heat, and instantly pull it off. The oil spot will be absorbed by the paper, rather than giving the blue job a camo effect. Two strips might be needed. Once the spot is on the steel, you have to polish and degrease the whole thing over to get it off.

I've actually used a small artists paintbrush to apply the solution with good results.

quote:

Use folded clean cotton for applying solution.

Now this is the kind of thread I like reading. Lots of good information exchanged and no bickering!

Has anyone here experimented with fume bluing? Where the metal is placed in a sealed area with a dish of differant acids to evaporate and rust the parts. I think it was introduced by Phil Pilkington.

At this years ACGG show, I purchased a DVD of the rust blueing seminar, put on by Pete Mazur, in 2000. It has some really outstanding info straight from one of, if not the master of the subject. I plan on watching it several additional times, before I begin to learn this art.

Jeff

Hello everyone and this is a great topic I think the first thing you have to wrap your self around is it is not rust bluing but more correctly blacking as the British call it. If you want more of the blue color you have to really do a charcoal blue. That being said I agree with the others in that you really need a damp box and all of the solutions mentioned work but it is a trial and effort for sure. I have used Pilkingtons with good success and my own formula as well and am getting ready to try the new Brownell's formula this weekend to see how it colors. As for fuming Pilkington's formula is good but you must follow it to the letter and results vary. Just my experience of the last 30 years hope this is of some help to some one.

AKJeff

I bought the same CD this year. The sound is so bad I cant understand what he is saying. His voice reverberates so heavily that I can only make out about every 5th word.

Does yours do this as well?

quote:

Originally posted by Craftsman:
Has anyone here experimented with fume bluing? Where the metal is placed in a sealed area with a dish of differant acids to evaporate and rust the parts. I think it was introduced by Phil Pilkington.

quote:

originally posted by SDH:
One of the problems with 'fume blueing' is that it is non-selective, rusting every surface, inside recesses, screw holes barrel bores, etc.
I've never tried it prefer the notion of only rusting the surfaces I apply solution to.

I attended Pilkington's 2nd 5-day Custom Gun Seminar in 1983. As rust bluing is a more lengthy and time consuming exercise, we rust blued every day......both fuming and with his solution.

My learning curve was certainly in its infancy at the time, so I perhaps didn't spend as much time with the fuming process back home as it deserved. I found it didn't get as firm an initial "bite" as directly applying solution. It also is likely the least aggressive rust bluing process......taking quite a bit of time to react to the metal. Additionally, it has the potential disadvantage of rusting every exposed surface as SDH noted above.

There are two advantages to the process that might be worthwhile working with in specific cases.

First, it's rather simple to implement. A couple drops of concentrated hydrochloric acid in one watch glass......a couple drops of concentrated nitric acid in another. Place them and the metal in a sealed container......we used a sealed plexi-glass box for visibility in class......and allow the two acids to fume, coat, and react on the metal. Removal after rusting, boiling, and carding are as with solution.

Second, the applied rusting agent is very evenly distributed over the metal. There won't be any areas carelessly missed getting solution applied, nor solution too heavy or too light. Also, the fuming acids lessen in intensity over successive passes.....a tenant in applying less solution each rusting session.

I've always been interested in experimenting with a combination of both procedures. I typically "rub in" the very first application of solution on bare metal. On successive applications, I carefully wipe the solution on....balancing that act of coverage vs. damaging the previous rusted layer......and getting very slight overlap on each pass.

I think a combination of solution on bare metal for the first rusting session, and fume on the succeeding applications might be interesting to try.

quote:

Originally posted by Craftsman:
AKJeff

I bought the same CD this year. The sound is so bad I cant understand what he is saying. His voice reverberates so heavily that I can only make out about every 5th word.

Does yours do this as well?

Yes, the sound sucks on mine as well. I just listened very closely using headphones. It's worth the aggravation, as the info is priceless.

Jeff

quote:

Yes, the sound sucks on mine as well. I just listened very closely using headphones. It's worth the aggravation, as the info is priceless

Headphones, now why didn't I think of that? Thanks Jeff.

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your contributions to an excellent and most informative thread! I am most appreciative indeed.

regarding fume bluing, you need nitric acid which is not easy to get. so I have been thinking, a little battery acid (which you can still get) and a nitrate (e.g., saltpeter, or sodium nitrate used to cure meat) should yield nitric acid. it will for sure under the correct conditions and concentrations, I have not tried the electrolyte/nitrate thing yet myself.

Just started rust bluing this year. Still learning the ropes to get the results I want. One thing I am doing is using a defunct refrigerator as a damp cabinet. I think I am going to use a thermostat to control the temperature better, the 45 watt heat lamp gets it up to about 118f. Still learning, I do like the fridge since I can store all the chemicals and materials in the freezer section on top.

Cheap humidity checker can be had from fine cigar suppliers. Try www.cigarsinternational.com
It has to be inside the box to work. Cut hole in damp box door, install glass or clear plastic sheet and mount the thing inside the door.