FFL/Shipping Issues

31 January 2003, 11:38

Reed

FFL/Shipping Issues

I was hoping somebody here may have answers to the following questions.

Is it considered a strawman purchase if one person does the paperwork for several rifles purchased through the mail and then resells them to other people that are qualified to own long guns (non-felons)? Or, is a straw purchase where a qualified person buys the gun and then knowingly resells to a non-qualified person (felon)?

I'm struggling with the concept that one person would be in violation of the law by buying several rifles with the intent to then resell to other perfectly qualified individuals. Is it a question of intent? Whether or not the intent was to immediately turn around and resell vs. buying and then at an indeterminate later date reselling.

Very confusing crap...

Thanks in advance and I hope that made sense.

Reed

31 January 2003, 12:02

Orion 1

If you want REAL advice, consult a lawyer well versed in firearm laws.

This is NOT the place to ask for information that, if incorrect, could very well result in stiff fines, prison time, and a permanent loss of your 2nd Amendment rights.

I am as serious as a heart attack.

31 January 2003, 17:06

Sysephus

ksdf wrote;

quote:
If you want REAL advice, consult a lawyer well versed in firearm laws.

Since the BATF "lawyers" will ALWAYS trump yours (and ksdf's, too) Ask BATF Write down your questions and send them off to:

Bureau of ATF
650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20226

Better to get the "skinny" from the horse's mouth than from the horse's ass. [Eek!]

31 January 2003, 17:15

<DuaneinND>

As a FFL holder, I would advise to enter into neither transaction. In both cases you are in violation of the law if you buy the firearms with the intent of resale, The one rifle for the unqualified person is a "straw purchase" and the other is called dealing without a license.

31 January 2003, 17:19

Reed

I'm just kind of fed up with the red tape. A friend has a dealer near his home town, which he visits often, who charges considerably less than other FFL's we're aware of locally. To use him I guess we'd have to all travel there to sign the paper even though it's perfectly legal for him to buy the same rifles and sell them to Joe Schmoe...but we're trying to be as straight as the proverbial grizzly d|ck.

I guess we'll just keep looking for a reasonably priced FFL locally.

As for lawyers, don't get me started. I think the idea of contacting the BATF directly may be the best idea. This site is also quite remarkable for folks copying in pertinent info...

Oh well, keep voting republican I guess.

Thanks,

Reed

01 February 2003, 01:58

John Frazer

Just my personal opinion, there are really two questions,

1. Who is the "actual buyer"? If your friend goes there with a pocketful of money to buy a bunch of guns that he knows he is going to turn right over to others for the same amount of money, ATF could definitely argue that he is not the "actual buyer", even more so if the money didn't all come out of his own bank account.

2. Would your friend be "engaged in the business" as a dealer, without the required license?

The straight-as-a-you-know-what answer is to buy your own guns.

John

01 February 2003, 02:50

<John Lewis>

Duane is absolutely right. Don't take any chances with this. Saving a few bucks is not worth the trouble it can get you in.

01 February 2003, 03:07

<RickMD>

"Strawman" purchases are illegal. Any transaction in which a purchase is made with the intent of resale (without a valid FFL) is against the law.

You may purchase a firearm as a gift for a family member but NO money may change hands.

Now if you "occasionally" sell guns from your private collection, that's OK as long as you're not doing it for profit.

What you're planning on doing is circumventing the insta-check system. In order to save a couple bucks, you're subjecting yourself to jail time. Pay your local dealer $20.00 per gun and sleep nights.

01 February 2003, 03:36

Reed

Like I said, we need to find a more reasonable FFL locally. So far one wants 20% and another is $40. For those kind of prices it is worth the travel as that guy charges $10.

Thanks for the input guys, you won't be seeing us on cops. [Smile]

Reed

01 February 2003, 04:03

Orion 1

quote:
Originally posted by Sysephus:
ksdf wrote;

quote:
If you want REAL advice, consult a lawyer well versed in firearm laws.
Since the BATF "lawyers" will ALWAYS trump yours (and ksdf's, too) Ask BATF Write down your questions and send them off to:

Bureau of ATF
650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20226

Better to get the "skinny" from the horse's mouth than from the horse's ass.

Hey Syphilis, spoken like a true horses' ass. He who seeks legal advice from the police is the ultimate fool.

[ 01-31-2003, 19:05: Message edited by: ksduckhunter ]

01 February 2003, 04:32

Gatogordo

Reed:

If you and your buddies buy enough guns for this to be an issue, one of you should get an FFL. Get all of them to pitch in $50 or so for the licensing fee and have a flat transfer fee of $10 a gun to the "contributors"(maybe $5 until they get their "contribution" back) and $20 to others or some such plan. After a while, the guy who has the FFL will make enough money for his trouble to buy an extra gun "on" his buddies and everyone will be happy.

01 February 2003, 07:04

Reed

New update, we found a guy much closer that will go $10 per. This is just one of those frustrations of modern life and big government. We're trying to buy some old Swedish and Spanish Mausers to use as relatively cheap shooters on our trips to the range. Oh boy, these are dangerous, can be converted to full auto with about $3000 worth of modifications, easily concealable... [Smile]

As for some of these FFL holders, I can understand recouping expenses and paying for time spent, but 20%, $40-$60/rifle? Too many are attempting profit based on government regs that go against the very core of their business, the free trade of their product. I remember my friends and this guy at $10/rifle will no doubt receive more of MY business, and not simply through FFL transactions.

Thanks to all for the responses.

Reed

01 February 2003, 14:43

hoss101

If that`s all you`re wanting is old Swedish and Spanish Mausers, spend the $30 and get a Curio and Relic license for yourself! Bypass the FFL dealers and have them shipped right to your door! Check it out at www.atf.treas.gov There is quite a long list of curio and relic firearms that can be shipped right to you with the FFL, and most guns over 50 years old qualify. There are even some machine guns that are considered C&R.