Howa.. how is it made?

03 November 2011, 01:24

Ive been looking into antoher Howa rifle, and again Im reading everything I can about them, but I cant seem to find actual proof of how its made.

Some say its a casting. Others machined forging. This is done by gun magazines as well here on accurate reloading.

Does anybody acctually know how their Stainless Steel action is produced? I know the bolt and handle are machined in one piece from a block of steel, as I have seen the photos of this done. But not the action itself.

03 November 2011, 03:21

kcstott

Their web site says forged.

03 November 2011, 03:53

Nortman

Winchesters are also forged steel recivers.. wich I pressume are good.

The question then is, is the forgin a single piece of steel wich it is then machined from.

Or, is the forgin pressed into the shape of the reciver, an then just slightly machined?

03 November 2011, 04:17

ssdave

Forging is a process where steel is heated red hot, and then hammered into a mold. It is more or less to shape, and is then finish machined.

The interesting thing is that the billet the forging is started from may be cast to an approximate shape to start with.

Forging aligns the metal particles and imparts a toughness to the metal. That's why it is preferred slightly to cast. Advancements in casting and subsequent heat treatment have eliminated much of that advantage. And, the distinction may get blurred a bit more by processes used on the castings.

I was told by a ruger designer that one of the major processes in rugers is "straightening and aligning" the receivers to account for shrinkage and warping in the casting/cooling process. This is done by pressing or hammering them in jigs to shape. Sounds a bit like forging?

Really, if the final machining is done right, there's little practical difference in the outcome in the final rifle.

dave

03 November 2011, 04:35

Trax

Just for interests sake, this is a Parker Hale casting.

03 November 2011, 05:25

kcstott

quote:
Originally posted by Nortman:
Winchesters are also forged steel recivers.. wich I pressume are good.

The question then is, is the forgin a single piece of steel wich it is then machined from.

Or, is the forgin pressed into the shape of the reciver, an then just slightly machined?

You would not cast a billet then machine from solid. It would be wasting time and material. As ssdave it could be cast then hammered into shape then machined to finish

03 November 2011, 15:22

Nortman

So, could one say its comparable to a Winchester mod 70, which also starts as a forging and is then machined?

From Winchester: "The forged steel receiver starts as a forged from a solid block of steel. (What could be stronger?) This is expensive to do, but the regal Model 70 is worth it. Each finished forging is precisely machined, creating a strong, stiff and solid receiver"

03 November 2011, 16:37

wildcat junkie

Forging or casting are ways to reduce the amount of machining needed to make a finished metal part.

In either case, the part is formed in a shape that is close to the finished dimensions & is then machined.

There is a lot of "hoopla" these days about "billet" machining. That is when a part is machined from a block of raw material that is usually starts out in a rectangular or cylindrical shape that is usually cut from cold rolled bar or rod stock.

This "billet" process is wasteful both in the amount of scap created as well as the time it takes to machine.

Using a "billet" only make sense for limited production where only 1 or perhaps a few parts are to be made. The cost of setting up a forging or casting operation to make a few parts would cost far more than the extra machining needed to make the part from a "billet". In a mss production scenerio, the intial set-up costs would be "spread out".

Any (affordable) mass produced machined metal product will either originate from a forging or a casting.

At one time, forging would yield a part that was much more consistant & tougher than a cast part. Advances in casting technology (investment/pressure casting)over the past several years has closed that gap but generally speaking, a forged part will be somewhat tougher than a cast part.

Modern investment casting will greatly reduce the amount of machining needed compared to a forging.

03 November 2011, 16:44

wildcat junkie

quote:
Originally posted by Trax:
Just for interests sake, this is a Parker Hale casting.

It's hard to tell for sure from the picture, but that looks like it was cast W/the "lost foam" process.

Does the surface look "beady" like a styrofoam cup?

I worked as a pipefitter in a "lost foam" foundry for 13 years.

03 November 2011, 17:48

Toomany Tools

Ain't marketing great? We're manipulated constantly by marketers building perceptions in our mushy heads re. "Forging is superior to casting." Bullshit! Forging and casting are just two ways to get to similar ends. Executed properly they both result in excellent products; either one done poorly produces junk. It's not how it's made; it's how WELL it's made.

But I bet I don't change anyone's mind here, thus another example of the power of marketing.

03 November 2011, 18:09

wildcat junkie

quote:
Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
Ain't marketing great? We're manipulated constantly by marketers building perceptions in our mushy heads re. "Forging is superior to casting." Bullshit! Forging and casting are just two ways to get to similar ends. Executed properly they both result in excellent products; either one done poorly produces junk. It's not how it's made; it's how WELL it's made.

But I bet I don't change anyone's mind here, thus another example of the power of marketing.

That may be somewhat true today, but @ one time, casting technology would not produce internal grain structures as consistantly as forging.

Case in point, automotive engine crankshafts.

03 November 2011, 22:17

kcstott

quote:
Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
Forging or casting are ways to reduce the amount of machining needed to make a finished metal part.

In either case, the part is formed in a shape that is close to the finished dimensions & is then machined.

There is a lot of "hoopla" these days about "billet" machining. That is when a part is machined from a block of raw material that is usually starts out in a rectangular or cylindrical shape that is usually cut from cold rolled bar or rod stock.

This "billet" process is wasteful both in the amount of scap created as well as the time it takes to machine.

Using a "billet" only make sense for limited production where only 1 or perhaps a few parts are to be made. The cost of setting up a forging or casting operation to make a few parts would cost far more than the extra machining needed to make the part from a "billet". In a mss production scenerio, the intial set-up costs would be "spread out".

Any (affordable) mass produced machined metal product will either originate from a forging or a casting.

At one time, forging would yield a part that was much more consistant & tougher than a cast part. Advances in casting technology (investment/pressure casting)over the past several years has closed that gap but generally speaking, a forged part will be somewhat tougher than a cast part.

Modern investment casting will greatly reduce the amount of machining needed compared to a forging.

And on John's comment

And I don't mean to derail this thread but same goes for stuff from China Over there you get what you pay for. and exactly what you pay for.

You can have nearly anything built in china so long as you spec everything out, Use a shop that it trustworthy and have onsite 3rd party QC to verify everything. They will produce a quality part but most shops have to be watched like a hawk

07 November 2011, 08:19

MOA TACTICAL

Howa's are made in Japan.

And they are machined tighter than 99% of the factory American rifles out there.

Which is kind of amazing considering that they are $400 on a bad day.

07 November 2011, 08:48

kcstott

Ya know My older brother has a Howa Hoge 1500 in 22-250 and that rifle is very smooth, very nice. They cut the regular corners to keep cost down. But no worse then Rem or Win do. The only thing I don't like is the stock but that can be changed as these are re branded Weatherby Vanguards.
Rifle is very accurate too. I'd like to get it the hands of an experienced bench rest shooter to see just how accurate it is.

07 November 2011, 09:30

SR4759

quote:
Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
Ain't marketing great? We're manipulated constantly by marketers building perceptions in our mushy heads re. "Forging is superior to casting." Bullshit! Forging and casting are just two ways to get to similar ends. Executed properly they both result in excellent products; either one done poorly produces junk. It's not how it's made; it's how WELL it's made.

But I bet I don't change anyone's mind here, thus another example of the power of marketing.

It is not marketing.
It is marketing regurgitating the engineering details. Most of the engineering trade studies are performed to optimize the performance vs the cost. This requires quantitative skills. A marketeer doesn't know squat about optimizing anything.