.300 UltraMag rifle

05 November 2001, 11:24

sheephunter

.300 UltraMag rifle

Gents:
I am inviting and welcome opinions to produce a new rifle for me.Many will consider shots beyond 300y unconscious but I feel here in the western mountains they "sometimes" make the difference- if they can be placed.So far I feel I could not,then I saw the new calibers in Ultra Mag
Just looking at the trajectories zeroed at 250 or 300y makes shots to 400-500y as secure ,as 300y shots c my 30/06 or .338 Mag

so,I am thinking I need a "decent MOA" of < 1/2".
Starting the game I ordered a barrel from D.Liljan which I know have to marry to a stock and action to stay < 1/2" AND keep my shoulder in place.

So what I am looking for is general experience c the caliber
a gunsmith that produces quality from stock actions
and experience c stocks:McMillan versus H&S

Oh ja,like to keep the toatal cost "funtional",meaning its a hunting rifle not a heirloom.
thanks for any comments

05 November 2001, 13:25

MADDOG

My .300 Ultra was built by Stan Hansen of Nebraska.
It sports a Lilja 26" barrel.
A trued 700 Remington action.
HS stock.
Leupold 4X14 ao scope.
KDF break.
And all the trick things to get 3/8" groups,all day long. YA really.
Give Him a call @ 1-308-423-2272
PS- I was born in Lancaster in 1954 @ Antelope Valley Med clinic. ( If it's still there)

[This message has been edited by MADDOG (edited 11-05-2001).]

05 November 2001, 15:21

Frank Nowakowski

Though not a big fan of the big overbores like the .30-.378, RUM's, etc. I have shot them and they DO shoot FLAT. Me and a buddy hunt a Ranch where the elk hunting is more similar to antelope hunting. Most shots are 300+ no matter what you do. One passes on many,many elk as we have a self imposed less than 400 yds maximum. So 399 yds is tough at times. Mine at 280 yds a few weeks ago was considerd a close range shot. So I can agree that one of these flat shooters, in thirty caliber or even .338" can really be a heck of a tool for these kind of situations.

Just saw a Hart built 7mm RUM; Rem 700, 28" barrel, trued action, Jewell trigger, and I think a Mc Millian stock,though may have been Brown Precision. The thing was like a laser. I think if one moved up to thirty caliber it would serve your purpose pretty well.

I have a pair of Mc Millans and a pair of HS drop ins and all four perform fine. Two on Rem 700's , one on a Sako and the other on a new M70.

Good Luck........let us know how this all works out, an interesting project.

05 November 2001, 16:44

sheephunter

Thanks for the pertinent contributions
Yes I was impressed seeing the trajectories,
so while we are all waiting for the laser guns-will try this project.
Maddog ,yes AV Hospital is still here and pretty much the only kid on the block
around 400 deliveries/month.I know-I am chief of OB.
thanks

06 November 2001, 19:43

MADDOG

Sheephunter Have you called Stan yet?? MD

07 November 2001, 06:16

growler

Last year I had a 300rum built on a Sako trgs action 27" gain twist Ron Smith barrel it does shoot very well, sub half moa groups, very flat.I think if you look closely at the trajectory tables you don't see much difference until after 300 yards. Personally I have never shot anything past about 350 yrds.I don't think these calibers are neccessary but I like new stuff and that is a good enough reason for me.

------------------
Growler

07 November 2001, 09:56

Gustavo

A friend of mine, Ricardo, bought a CZ 550 Magnum, brand new in 300 Win Mag.

After some consideration, and good input from, mostly saying, that is long action really deserves a long cartridge, so converting this extraordinary Mauser action to .300RUM is the logical way to go...I almost foresee CZ doing this in factory form someday...I hope so!! this way we can get rid off the Remington's!!!

In short, he purchased a reamer set from Brownells, sent the rifle to a qualified gunsmith and Alas! he got a sub MOA rifle, 164 yards, one hole tack driver...using Barnes XLC 180grains.

So, do yourself a favor, and take a look at this proposition, the CZ is hard to beat...and take into account that I do not own a single one...(because I love SS)

Gustavo

07 November 2001, 11:34

sheephunter

Thanks for all recommendations,keep them coming for this caliber.Maybe we will build this new "no-excuse" gun to perfection.
Maddog-,no,have not been able to reach Stan yet.Did talk c Greg Tannel ,www.gtrtooling.com,who sports an impressive Web page.He scared the hell out of me as he wants to chamber the barrel for a turned cartridge.I read all the comments on this forum re cartridge turning.As usual the opinions are divided.From what I gather
it can contribute to a smaller MOA,maybe is even essential.My concern is that a .300 UM
cartridge goes for around 50c these days,following the advice of buying 200-500
is a capital outlay of up to 250$,then weighing,sorting and turning of the lot should result in 10-20% "good ones" so we are talking 50-100 cartridges at 250$ usable 5-10 times.
then ,if one has this tight chamber,one cannot move to "factory"type loads or cartriges at all,-too small
sounds like an eclectic instrument.
So I am trying to gather opinions about this chamber issue,custom reamed to precicely turned brass.

You mentioned you are getting 3/8" which seems pretty good ,what kind of ammo are you using and what preps are you following if reloading?

Otherwise I am still c the Lilja barrel,decided on a H&S Precisio stock.
The H&S folks have mercury ampule in the stock to reduce recoil by 25%( from Brownell)
seems like a worthwhile addition for the cannon- only weighs 8 oz.Thats not so good
I will use a muzzle brake from G Vais or KDF
have to research the latter.
Greg Tannel recommended the stock Remington action in UM as a donor for the action.
Have to research the recommendation for the CZ,-- any comments from the forum?
H&S has stock for the Remington,seems the CZ would need a "custom"stock too?

sheephunter

07 November 2001, 12:43

sheephunter

Inviting fighting spirits:

In my research to find the truth about the 300 UltraMag ammo I ran across an article in the RealGuns web by a to me unknown well meaning "Joe".www.realguns.com.
I am copying the pertinent statement here:
""

Come to think of it, I've never seen credible load data that illustrates the long case Ultra Mag series offers a real world performance gain over the more mature magnum cartridges Remington targeted to replace.

Rick Jamison's did a piece in the October 2001 issue of Shooting Times, "Handloading the King of 7mm Commercial Cartridges" which reports a very substantial velocity gain for the full size 7mm Ultra Mag over other traditional 7 mm magnums, unfortunately, only when shot through a 32" test barrel. The same load, when pushed through a 24" barrel, lost 500 fps and barely matching the performance of the old 7mm Weatherby Magnum. Guns & Ammo reports the 160 grain Partition load for the 7mm Short Mag has a muzzle velocity of 2,960. That would be only 50 fps slower than my 20+ year old M700 BDL 7mm Remington Mag.
"""
If this is true,then I would like not to be victim to this con game.
the contradiction is that Remington publishes in their balistic table trajectories from 24" barrels

Does anyone know who has an agenda other then informing?

sheephunter

07 November 2001, 19:57

MADDOG

Sheephunter- This would be a great time to talk to Stan Hansen as he has my gun as we speak. The chamber was so tight that I could not use factory ammo. He is fixing that now. Not that it was broke just that I wanted to be able to use factory bullets if I needed to on a trip or something unforeseen happened to my bullets in transit. He is very informative and could help you with some of your questions. I have had many guns and several of them built by very good smiths, but as I said his is the best ever and I do know the difference when it comes to this kind of rifle. MD

08 November 2001, 10:07

Gustavo

Sheephunter,

Please let me know what else would ou like to know about the CZ job, and I'd gladly give you any details.

The accuracy is nothing short of amazing, take into account Barnes XLC 180grains (that is REAL hunting bullets), 150 meters (164yards) groups, and with the original 25" barrel the velocity averages 3320 fps

Gustavo

08 November 2001, 11:39

sheephunter

THANKS for the ongoing help,
finally talked to Hansen,he is moving and therefore out of comission until Jan,he did tell me that the throat of your gun was too short,the chamber is alright.The 3/8" pattern is with carefully selected match ammo
per his comment,wonder what it is with hunting rounds.
Thanks Gustavo,I called around, as you state they dont make stainless,which I think is better in the wet Northwest,so unfortunately will have to stay c Remington.

08 November 2001, 12:35

MADDOG

SHEEPHUNTER- I WAS ABLE TO MATCH THE 3/8 GROUPS WITH A 165 GR. NOSLER BT. AND THE HUNTING LOAD PUT A 180 GR.HORNADY AT 5/8" STILL WORKING ON NEW LOADS. BUT MAY HAVE TO START OVER AS THE NEW THROAT MAY CHANGE THINGS A LITTLE.. MD

08 November 2001, 14:32

sheephunter

quote:
Originally posted by MADDOG:
SHEEPHUNTER- I WAS ABLE TO MATCH THE 3/8 GROUPS WITH A 165 GR. NOSLER BT. AND THE HUNTING LOAD PUT A 180 GR.HORNADY AT 5/8" STILL WORKING ON NEW LOADS. BUT MAY HAVE TO START OVER AS THE NEW THROAT MAY CHANGE THINGS A LITTLE.. MD

I am happy to hear that,5/8" at 100y is good for a hunting load,fiddling c powders/ammo might improve that.I have been reading various threads on the reloading forum here-
quite a wealth of info-one has to sort out what is doable/sensible for hunting loads.
VarmintAl has an excellent web page describing reasonable techniques(http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/arelo.htm)
looks like neckturning is in
he states that once he has his cartridges prepared they (should) last indefinitly.
Dont know whether that goes for Magnum loads
but the rational should apply.

I have to study the neck business in more detail before reaming the chamber into the new barrel,oversize to accept "factory" cartridges or built tight for preselected necks c greater accuracy and the chance that the loads stick-I wish somebody c exprience
could enlighten the subject
sheephunter

09 November 2001, 13:03

<Rust>

I have a .338 RUM, 26" barrel, still have the factory H&S stock on it, a Vais muzzle brake (decent recoil reduction without much, if any increase in muzzle blast), a Kepplinger set trigger kit, and a Leupold LRT on top of Mk4 mounts and hand lapped rings. Shoots adaquately.

I also have a .300 RUM built on a Winchester action that will probably go through a couple more modifications.

Of the two, the .338 is much less overbore. With the high BCs of most .338 bullets the ballistics are there too. I tend towards very slow powders to keep the pressure and flame temps down while still getting very good velocity and excellent accuracy (3/4" if I manage to hold on, load testing is still underway). The .338 has proven to be less picky to load for.

As far as brass goes, I have found my first couple of batches to be remarkably uniform. Weights averaged around 270 some grains, with usually nor more than a 2 grain variation. In a case this large and since it will not be used for benchrest a less than 1 percent variation in inconsequantial. As it relates to powder charges, a 2 grain case weight difference is the equivalent of a .2 grain powder charge variance at most. My accuracy load is 102 gr of AA8700 behind a 200 gr Nosler BT. Very inconsequential. I've sectioned two cases that came with mild neck damage out of the new brass batches and internally the brass is very nice and has very thick webbing. Much stouter than the .404 used to wildcat the .338-.404 that was the wildcat this is based off of.

I would have to say I consider the .338 to be the more versatile of the two because the throw weights of the bullets covers a wider range and for equal weights the velocities are pretty much the same. Also, because the .338 is not as overbore, there really isn't as much advantage in going to a very long barrel. There are more bullets available for the .300 however.

It's kind of what was discovered with the 30-378 and 30-416 from the early wildcat days, for maximum velocity, the barrel has to be long enough to burn all the powder with the bullet still in the bore or there will not be a velocity increase.

Still, with a high BC bullet, the .300 would have some advantage at very long ranges (potenitally) but I would be looking at the ballistics tables pretty closely before making a choice. Or you could do what I did and just get both.

10 November 2001, 20:01

<Herb D>

sheephunter,

After I got my 3 RUMS this year I checked on factory ballistics and found out what you mentioned that Remington numbers are based on 24" barrels. So, I e-mailed them and told them how ridiculous this was since the rifles they sell come with 26" barrels.

Needless to say I never got a reply for them.

[This message has been edited by Herb D (edited 11-10-2001).]

11 November 2001, 05:09

sheephunter

Thanks to all for the practical experience.
Sounded like all that actually tried the Ultra Mag guns could verify its trajectories to be pretty good.Joe pointed out to me that Weatherby's 300 Magnum is pretty much identical.
Based on this I ordered my new supergun yesterday to be build on a Nesika action
and H&S stock,c a 26" Liljan barrel.
It occurred to me that buying a new Rem rifle and throwing everything but the action,then spending around 600$ on spiffying up the action and ending up c a Rem
conversion was somewhat inferior to the above.
Herb,myself I had contacted Remington at least 3 times along the way thru their Web page service,never got an answer to anything.
I believe they are in sales not service.Compare that c all the small outfits I chose,they spent all the time with me explaining and educating me.

sheephunter

11 November 2001, 06:38

Atkinson

I have a chronograph, so I'm not all that impressed with the new magnums...I believe them to be operating at too high pressure, recoil too much, and are loaded with extra grains of the new BS powder

I have seen some of these guns develope headspace and am aware that some of them are now being loaded down by the factories as the original velocities were too hot, a factory ruse that has worked for years, that is start them hot and then back off quitely.

About all a master shooter can handle from a long range standpoint is a 300 H&H, Wby, or Win. in MHO...I would venture to say if you missed with a 300 wby then you would have missed with a 30-378 or whatever you were using in the field,where so many other varibles come into play other than how flat a gun will shoot.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

11 November 2001, 07:54

sheephunter

Thanks Ray,
for your opinion.Dont quite know what to make of it.I believe the more powder one shoots the more recoil one has to endure.
So I will find out how much is left using the stock-pad( H-S,states it takes 10-15% off)
and Vais muzzle break(unknown reduction)
For now i decided to go without the Mercury ampules in the stock because of weight considerations.

I would not like it if the action doesnt hold up under the pressures developed.I have a chronograph,but it measures speed not pressure.I figured a 26" barrel would allow a slower burn and thereby maybe lower pressures?

The only reason I decided for these UM's is the stated flatter trajectory-probably equal to the Weatherby 300Mag though.

Shooting the last day across "the canyon" for elk or being pinned down on a shale mountain for fear the sheep spot you ,was the
original reason for desiring a flat shooter.

sheephunter