The Accurate Reloading Forums
Goat Rifle - need some help.
11 December 2001, 16:10
<Jerry Skidmore>Goat Rifle - need some help.
I'm looking for a lightweight rifle with some punch for a goat hunt I'm planning. I can't afford a custom rifle. I kind of like the Model 70 Stainless in the new .300WSW. That takes care of the punch, now how do I get the rifle to weight in at less than 8 lbs. It starts at 7.25 lbs and I will put a 2.5x8 Leupold on it. I figure it will weigh over 8.5 lbs. I can't afford to spend a lot of money. I'm interested in inexpensive ideas
Thanks, Jerry
11 December 2001, 16:57
TomPHello Jerry
Look for an old Remington 600 in 6.5mm Remington Magnum or 308 maybe. They're uncommon but are very light, under 6 pounds. I've heard they were accurate shooters; the one I saw in 243 certainly was.
Tom
11 December 2001, 17:00
CanuckJerry, That would definately do the trick. A nice combo for sure. The easiest way to knock a pound off of that rifle would be to invest in a Brown's Precision Kevlar Pounder 16oz stock. But it will set you back a couple hundo.
If you are open to other suggestions, I would recommend the Rem 700 Mountain LSS. I only weighs 6 5/8 lbs undressed.
In my experience, goats don't really take a lot of killing. Longish shots can be common, so a flat shooting gun is nice, but real punch is not necessary. In fact, less punch is sometimes better. You see I have a theory. People try to anchor goats to the mountain, and yet the tough buggers still manage to nose dive off of cliffs. If you shoot them behind the shoulder to take out the lungs, and minimize structural damage, they will often go and lay down and expire peacefully.
My personal recommendation for a great goat gun would be the .270 or .280, or even a .308 or '06 with 165 gr bullets. With the .308 you could get the short action Mountain rifle and knock another quarter pound off the gun.
Canuck
[This message has been edited by Canuck (edited 12-11-2001).]
11 December 2001, 17:04
CanuckTomP, My brother has a Mohawk in .308. From all accounts it is a pretty accurate little gun, and it is light. I would bet it weighs in around 6 lbs.
If you go the short carbine route, the Rem Model 7 and the Winchester Classic Compact are also fine guns. 7mm/08 or .308 would certainly do the trick. The Winchester is only 6 lbs!
Canuck
11 December 2001, 18:32
<Daryl Elder>I don't particularly like them but the Browning stainless synthetic is a very light gun. There is one in a store I work at sometimes in 7mm-08. Very compact and a good goat caliber.
11 December 2001, 20:57
BWCanuck wrote above...
quote:
If you are open to other suggestions, I would recommend the Rem 700 Mountain LSS. I only weighs 6 5/8 lbs undressed.
Uh...
I'm not sure why you chose to share that with us??? It doesn't seem germane to the subject.
Not that I wanted to, but I got a mental image of that, and it ain't pretty!
------------------
Brian
The 416 Taylor WebPage!
12 December 2001, 00:45
<Don G>Try for a Rem Mod7 in 308 or 7-08. It even comes in the 7mm Short RUM. All the older 243/308s I saw were tack drivers.
The new specs say 7.125 lbs. bare.
Don
12 December 2001, 00:54
<jd_1>Jerry,
I have never hunted goat. I do own one of those 700 mountain rifles. If you are considering other choices I would recommend you handle one. Mine is chambered in .280 rem. but, they also chamber them for a few other long and short action cartridges, no magnums though. If you are in no hurry and interested in thes rifle I would almost bank on it coming out in the new Renington Short Mags soon.
12 December 2001, 01:09
Major CaliberIn Shotgunews they have a closeout on the Colt Utralight rifles, under 6 pounds, they had 7mm Rem Mag. $529 with rings. I would say a .260 Rem, 7mm-08, or .270 would be ideal calibers for a Goat rifle.
12 December 2001, 05:23
StonecreekBefore buying any new rifle based on the factory spec weights, weight the actual gun yourself. Factory specs are notoriously inaccurate as to weight.
12 December 2001, 05:35
Curtis_LemaySome of Winchester's guns are 7lbs even, and i think (could be wrong) a few a less than that. My guess is these WSMs are in magnum stocks and weighted down a bit. Too bad though, I think the Classic Featherweight in 7 WSM would be just what the doctor ordered for this job.
------------------
When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.
12 December 2001, 13:31
<Mike Dettorre>Jerry,
The hogue "Overmold" rubber coated will knock a pound off most guns and run I think around $150. Check the weights in brownells catalog of this stock versus other stocks.
Mike
------------------
MED
The sole purpose of a rifle is to please its owner
12 December 2001, 17:42
<sure-shot>Some pretty good choices listed so far, another one might be one of the lighter Savage bolt guns in a synthetic/stainless. They are shooters and the price is right. sure-shot
13 December 2001, 02:22
Canuckquote:
Originally posted by BW:
I'm not sure why you chose to share that with us???
Oops! 
Well, with all this talk about Walter half-naked, taking baths with kudu horns, I thought.... 
I am obviously going to have to start proof reading my posts! Thanks Brian!
Canuck
13 December 2001, 04:30
dan belisleIf budget is an issue, I would go the Mohawk route. I have four of these and they all shoot well and are very light. If the standard calibers don't do it for you, they could be re-chambered/re-barreled for the Rem SAUM cartridges. I don't think the Win SAM or the Lazzeroni short mags would work, though. For my own goat gun, I rebarreled a Mohawk to .284 Win, with the throat and the magazine modified to allow 3 inch COL. Add a light weight stock (or just judicously drill the wooden one), a 2-7 Vari X II, and presto...one light goat rifle.
13 December 2001, 07:09
LongbobJerry, a solution from another angle. You might consider using a Vero Vellini sling with the wide top. You would be amazed at how much lighter the rifle "feels." If you are winded, it is because of additional factors that the lighter rifle will not solve on it's own. The additional weight of the rifle will help you steady for the shot. Overall, this has been by far the best solution for myself and it ends up being the cheapest and simplest!
14 December 2001, 01:40
<JOHAN>Jerry
I don't think that weight is the biggest problem for hard hunting, balance matters more to my mind.
Most standard weight rifle should work. A friend of mine who is an outfitter claims that it matters more, if hunters are fit and can see their groin without mirror, than rifle weight.
Rifle with normal weight are easier to shoot when you heart is pumping wild after a climb. Pick a standard rifle and fit a fibre glass stock to it in suitable caliber, like 270, 280 7mm mag or WSM. Choose the rifle that fits you.
good luck
14 December 2001, 02:43
<gamecock>Agree with Johan. Dropping 10 lbs. from the waist-line sure as hell beats scraping one-half to a pound from a rifle. I've noted over the years that the better fit I am the lighter the rifle feels. Toted my wood stocked, M70, for four days in OK last month and don't remember ever thinking, "I wish this old gun was a little lighter."
Wondering: is there a formula that would compute step-pounds per mile, say for a person who lost 10 lbs. vs carrying a rifle that weighed a pound less. Hmmmm...
The obvious solution is to stay in fighting trim all the time, then worry about rifle weight, but I don't seem to have the stomach for that.
16 December 2001, 12:39
PCJerry, I beleive Ruger make an ultralight rifle in .243 and .308 and a couple of calibres in between. Goats are easily put down with any calibre .24 and above. The Ruger stainless lightweight would be a fair bit cheaper than a Remington or sako etc. (they are in Australia) and you still get a pretty good rifle. If you could not afford to put a leupold on it, a simmons whitetail expedition in 3-9 would be a good scope. I have one in 4-12X44 and the optics are sharp and it seems to be of good quality.
Regards PC.
------------------
16 December 2001, 14:35
<sure-shot>On the rifle weight issue, keep in mind once the game is down the work begins. The rifle once a tool now becomes a hindrance on the trip back to camp if you are packing out the cape, meat etc. Goat hunting is physically demanding, it may take many day trips up the the mountain to find the goat you want. A 10lb rifle feels like 15lbs after a week in the high country even if you are in shape. I like a mtn rifle to weigh about 7.5 to 8lbs scoped with most of the weight in the barrel. Most of the manufactors shave weight off the barrel - a big mistake. For optics I would choose a Leupold Var-X III in 2.5X8 set in lapped dual dovetail mounts. sure-shot
16 December 2001, 16:42
TomPHello C
I'd think a 243 Mohawk rechambered to 6mm-284 would set the house afire. Only hitch would be the short barrel and the enornmous fireball on the end of it. The Remington 600 in 6.5mm Magnum was their shot at 270 performance in a short-action 5-pound rig. While it did not set any sales records at the time, they are scarce as hen's teeth on the market now. I'd kind of like one, but haven't seen one for sale in decades.
Tom
16 December 2001, 16:57
35nutHay guys.
Round is a shape!
Although it may not be the preferred one.
16 December 2001, 18:40
AtkinsonI sure wouldn't worry about a couple of pounds on a rifle..Wear lighter boots or like the man said loose weight, and you will hunting goats...A little heft in that rifle will come in handy when you get the shot and your gasping for air. It will make the shot good in many instances and thats what your there for...No offense, but I can't understand people whining about the weight of a gun. Light guns are fer wimmen, sissys, n kids.
------------------
Ray Atkinson
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com
16 December 2001, 20:15
<sure-shot>Ray,
Cirssarian walnut and goat country don't mix too well. Believe me on this one.
sure-shot
16 December 2001, 20:18
Canuckquote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
No offense, but I can't understand people whining about the weight of a gun. Light guns are fer wimmen, sissys, n kids.
Hey Ray, Follow me around for a week and you'll understand!
Seriously though, it makes a difference if you spend any amount of time in the mountains, with all your own gear on your back. All the guys I know that don't appreciate a light gun for this kind of hunting, only do it once in a blue moon (like a one week trip every couple of years or so) and are usually guided.
If you like to look in the nooks and crannies in the Rockies, and get your butt out of the saddle long enough to work up a real good sweat, you are gonna wear the soles off of a lot of good boots and will appreciate a 7 pound gun. A heavier gun won't slow you down much, but a light gun is sooooo much more comfortable! In other words, it ain't a "must have", but it sure is a "nice to have". And the reality is, very few sheep or goats are shot offhand, so extra weight is of little practical use to the bona-fide mountain hunter.
I may be a "kid" in your books, but I have "been there and done that", on this topic, more times than most. I own one light gun for these kinds of hunts, which occupy most of my hunting each fall. The rest of the time I carry an 8 to 10 lb gun (eg. elk hunting, deer hunting).
Canuck
[This message has been edited by Canuck (edited 12-16-2001).]
17 December 2001, 05:27
dan belisleHi Canuck. Couldn't agree more about mountain hunting. I had another thought (had to be gentle with it, it was in a strange place) check out the Kifaru lightweight switch barrel rifles at their site. Very interesting. Good hunting - Dan
17 December 2001, 08:19
<sure-shot>Canuck,
Excellent posting. I guess this puts us in a seperate class than the so-called guided crowd. I'm always amazed how soon they "wimp out" with their 10lb cannons after a week in the high country and head elsewhere. sure-shot
17 December 2001, 12:52
AtkinsonChildren;
this old hoss has hauled that heavy circasian walnut stocked 300 H&H all over the high spots from Idaho where I live, the Texas desert where I was born to the peaks of Afganistan, Canada, Alaska and along the elephant tracks of Tanzania and Kenya. Wood and heavy was all we had, so save your childish philosophy for someone that doesn't know better...I wasn't as tough as my daddy and you youngsters arn't as tough as we were and your kids won't be as tough as you...Just something I've noticed over the years, so don't get in an uproar over a little knowledge that I'm passing on to you just to make you a little wiser and hoping to toughen you up...
------------------
Ray Atkinson
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com
17 December 2001, 18:02
<sure-shot>Listen up pilgrim,
Well I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. You better save that cirssarian boat paddle for firewood when you freeze your a$$ off up above timberline in Idaho next time.
sure-shot
17 December 2001, 18:34
CanuckRay,
I respect your right to be as stubborn and set in your ways as you like. If you like packing more weight than you need to (in these specialized circumstances), I am sure I won't convince you otherwise. A lot of people just don't want to leave their favorite rifle in the cabinet, no matter how heavy it might be. Some might call it masochistic, but to each his own I say. If you'd rather sit on a wood bench than in a lazy boy, who am I to argue?
With regard to the generational trend you have observed, I have noticed it to. The devolution of humanity in this regard is troubling to me. That is why I refrain from using most gadgets and things like ATV's. I don't necessarily disagree with them but I sure don't need an excuse to get lazy. I would like to think I am as tough as any that came before me, but the only way that would ever be 100% true is if I quit working behind a desk. Still I do what I can.
Canuck
18 December 2001, 03:09
<Cobalt>Ray,
My eyes are watering and I was laughing so hard that my assistants checked to see if I was OK! Thanks for the laugh--what a great way to start the day. Cobalt
18 December 2001, 04:30
Curtis_LemayThat's what I like about you Ray, never afraid to set these whipper snappers straight.
------------------
When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.
18 December 2001, 04:41
AtkinsonI just thought I'd stir the water a bit, it was getting kinda boring and I'd already kicked the dog..all in fun of course. well except for the dog!!
On the real side, I still use my wood stocked and blued rifles. I just like the 26" barrel and the steadyness that comes with them when this old body is out of breath and thats most of the time up high..I will save weight in my pack, eat jerky and carry only water..Unless I have someone like Cannuck with me then I beg coffee and donuts off him and act like I'm haveing a heart attack and he'll offer to pack my rifle, after we get up there, always works, because I have a kind and gentle face.
------------------
Ray Atkinson
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com
18 December 2001, 08:29
CanuckRay, I knew you were just stirrin. I was just being a "smart ass" to have some fun too. We've danced this number before, but it is always fun.
And, if we ever meet on the mountain I'll be glad to pack that ol' .300 for you. Being a nice guy has been a curse my whole life. But what goes around comes around, as they say. Hopefully my nephews and neices will grow up to be nice folk, and will fall for my tricks one day.
Canuck
18 December 2001, 13:55
Major CaliberRay, you are right about the 26" barrel, I have a Model 70 in 7mm Rem Mag, it's not my most accurate rifle, but in the field I have made my best shots on game with it, the extra barrel length really makes it easy to steady.
18 December 2001, 16:42
AtkinsonEverybody needs a Canuck, it just makes life a lot easier in your golden years
------------------
Ray Atkinson
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com
18 December 2001, 17:15
<sure-shot>Dear thick-skinned Ray,
Jack O'Conner(advocate & pioneer of the mtn rifle concept) is rolling over in his grave about now - SHAME ON YOU!! I guess Jack, myself and a host of others are wimps in your book. Nothing gained, nothing lost here.
That said, have a good trip, slay one for me and shoot straight with that antiquated scrap iron! sure-shot
19 December 2001, 03:07
<JOHAN>Hey
Thanks Ray for backing me up. Nice rifle you have, Ray
Lightweight rifles are not longrange rifles, in the mountains the ranges can get long. A frind of mine shot a billy at 320 yards last season. It's much easier to have more weight and barrel lenght to get the crosshairs to stabilize. "Hunting Billy and got a Billy is two different things", hi hi.
Since hunting has never been a fairy sport some of you might considering collecting stamps instead, or buy a pair of sneakers and hit the tarmack.
I guess O'Connor liked rifles around 8,5-9 lbs. This can't be light enough for the worst freaks.
[This message has been edited by JOHAN (edited 12-18-2001).]
19 December 2001, 08:14
CanuckJOHAN,
Since I bought in for a dime with Ray, I may as well buy in for a dollar .............
I totally agree with the merits of a heavier rifle for field shooting from positions other than a solid rest. The extra weight definately dampens the unavoidable tremors.
IMHO, however, lightweight rifles can be just as accurate as heavy rifles from a solid rest. I know mine is anyway. And, in my experience, when hunting sheep and goats there is seldom the need to shoot from anything but a solid rest. You usually spot them from a distance and stalk into a shooting position. You almost always have a pack or rock to shoot off of.
FWIW, my last goat was shot at 300m. I used the frame of my pack as a rest. Nary a waver and a one shot kill. Not bad for gun that weighs 7 pounds soaking wet, eh?
Canuck
19 December 2001, 16:47
<gamecock>Well, dang! Been carryin' that old wood and blue M70 for nearly 45 years, and as I said earlier, I never thought of using a 'lighter' gun. Most of my shots are, unfortunately, not over a rock or a pack frame: usually they are taken by snugging the sling up tight, dropping to one knee and killing the beast. There the heavier gun (9lb, 6 1/2oz, just weighed it) is definitely the steadier hold. Don't argue that a 6 lb Whippet over a rock is steady - just doesn't work for me, and I'd guess maybe not for a lot of others.
And, I need to re-ask the question, "does anyone know the difference between loosing ten pounds, or carrying a 1 lb lighter rifle for one mile?" Let's say it's 1760 steps. Is it 15,840 lbs, or nearly 8 TONS? God, I hope not.