Scope mounting help

07 July 2021, 02:04

RogersGunWorks

Scope mounting help

Would appreciate recommendations about how to keep a scope from sliding in the rings. I've never had a problem like this despite building .458 Lotts and other heavy kickers. I've read that rosin, double sided tape, and an electrical sealant called Scotchkote are possible cures. What works best for you? FWIW, the scope is a 3-12x50mm on a Rigby .350 No.2 in damnable H&H rings. Thanks, Roger

07 July 2021, 03:43

Bobster

You may not be getting adequate contact between the rings and the scope tube. Dykem the tube or rings and see where the contact points are. My bet is that you are getting less than 50%. May need to be lapped, Or rings may not be level with each other. Afterwards, use Oxpho blue on the insides to create a rough surface.

quote:
Originally posted by RogersGunWorks:
Would appreciate recommendations about how to keep a scope from sliding in the rings. I've never had a problem like this despite building .458 Lotts and other heavy kickers. I've read that rosin, double sided tape, and an electrical sealant called Scotchkote are possible cures. What works best for you? FWIW, the scope is a 3-12x50mm on a Rigby .350 No.2 in damnable H&H rings. Thanks, Roger

07 July 2021, 04:05

Steve E.

First thing to do is follow Bobsters advice to make sure you have the most contact and then use the latest greatest substance that everybody recommends to prevent slippage. You'll get all kinds of advice. My Buddy uses (and I have with success also) Shoe Goo.

Steve......

07 July 2021, 05:02

Michael Robinson

This is a subject near and dear to me. First of all, the recommended torque of 20 inch-lbs. is NOT enough to prevent scope slippage on a big bore rifle. Thirty is better.

As for the goop, I'll admit the stuff scares me.

Easy on, but damn near impossible to get off.

At least for anything that works.

Happy to be told otherwise and learn from others.

07 July 2021, 05:34

sjmci

I coat the inside of the rings with a thin coat of Pliobond. Seems to help, reduces ring rash on the scope tube, and is easily removed.

07 July 2021, 06:20

dpcd

Ring contact, and rosin on hard kickers.

07 July 2021, 17:48

Nortman

From D´arcy Echols blog:
http://echolsrifles.blogspot.com/2020/07/hmmm.html

458wm on Holland and Holland rifle.
4 set screws pr ring, that bite into the scope.

08 July 2021, 01:20

Recoil Rob

I've always lapped and then a thin coating of rubber cement. Never had a problem up to .35 Whelen and 12ga slug gun.

08 July 2021, 09:42

eagle27

The original Weaver rings with the steel band on top and 2 screws on one side. Any one who has used these will know they are a bit of a bastard to get right as the scope vertical crosshair must be rolled back a little from perpendicular as it will roll into vertical as the screws are tightened. However you will also know that you only have to barely nip the screws and you can't roll or slide the scope in the rings.
I use nothing else for mounting scopes if I can get the original style rings, you don't need any tape, glue or otherwise.

08 July 2021, 19:07

Clayman

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
This is a subject near and dear to me. First of all, the recommended torque of 20 inch-lbs. is NOT enough to prevent scope slippage on a big bore rifle. Thirty is better.

As for the goop, I'll admit the stuff scares me.

Easy on, but damn near impossible to get off.

At least for anything that works.

Happy to be told otherwise and learn from others.

I agree 100% with this post. Having recently battled with a big bore scope slipping, I tried the silicone goo - didn't work, though it came off easily with some acetone. Electrical tape, rosin, or any other condiment seems to be a bit jury-rigged to me.

The solution in the end was to simply tighten the screws more. 20 in-lbs might be enough to hold your scope on your 270, but it ain't gonna work on a 458, 500, etc. There's nothing worse than getting halfway through a load testing session only to realize your scope slipped.

08 July 2021, 19:23

dpcd

I never use a torque wrench on anything but engine head bolts.
Never had a scope slip either. I know how much to tighten them.
Like the PinBall Wizard; for you young guys, look it up.

08 July 2021, 20:00

Duane Wiebe (CG&R)

Have no use for those little torque wrenches. Make sure the screws are tightened evenly, like you'd do wheel nuts...go back and forth until you really bottom out.

Be sure to remove any oil. The only time I use liquid' electrical tape is on such as claw mounts when the ring wraps on top of the objective lens. Then I use a little less toque.. How much less?
Heck, I don't know...just gotta feel right.

Leupold scopes have mostly thinner tubing, so this has to be taken into account when rings are close to lenses or adjustment innards.

But....,I'm nut sure how much of a lens breakage problem exists with mostly plastic lenses in modern scopes.

09 July 2021, 02:01

RogersGunWorks

Thanks for all the recommendations. I now believe the problem to be that the ring halves (they're horizontally split) come together when the ring screws are tightened and simply don't hold the scope tube tightly enough. To fix things, I milled a total of .025" from the ring tabs so there is now a gap between the rings when the screws are tightened. Like DPCD and Duane Wiebe, I don't use no stinking' torque wrench, but tightened the screws good and tight. Part of the problem with this set up is the ring screws are a small 3M x .5. Were the screws at least 6-48 with hardened Torx heads, tightening the screws would not be a problem. And just for luck, I dusted the rings with rosin. Will let everyone know how this works.

And, as a public service announcement, avoid the H&H mounting system at all costs. It is FUBAR (ask DPCD what this means) and defies all logic of scope mounting.

Cheers, Roger

09 July 2021, 02:55

Clayman

I use a torque screwdriver and am quite happy doing so when mounting scopes. It's about 50/50 for achieving the torque value I want and then keeping that across all the screws evenly.

I once heard from another "crusty old guy" (pardon the phrase) that you torque scope screws until your fingers turn white and then bump it a little more. Served him well for decades.

09 July 2021, 03:00

ZekeShikar

I've used a torque thingy for years and move back and forth as they tighten (like you guys mentioned) THEN I TORQUE THEM ALL A BIT+ MORE BY HAND!

I also quit assuming the ring halves are correctly contacting the tube. I lap them all to improve contact and avoid tube damage.

But what do I know?

Zeke

09 July 2021, 03:21

Duane Wiebe (CG&R)

I like torx heads just because they are always "in alignment " However. I'm certain one can crank in screws tighter with a standard slot and a PROPERLY fitted driver.

Roger may have used the "26mm/one inch" rings commonly offered. and..yes, the 26 mm is just on the edge of being too large.. The fix was spot on.

09 July 2021, 03:30

Dale

I lap the scope rings and then put a small piece of electrical tape inside each ring half. My biggest rifle is a .458 Lott, and the scope has never moved on it.

09 July 2021, 19:16

Duane Wiebe (CG&R)

quote:
Originally posted by Nortman:
From D´arcy Echols blog:
http://echolsrifles.blogspot.com/2020/07/hmmm.html

458wm on Holland and Holland rifle.
4 set screws pr ring, that bite into the scope.

hmmmmm... Gotta be a b better way

13 July 2021, 10:48

Michael Robinson

I will definitely try the rosin.

I know it works on curveballs and barrel vises.

I would expect it will also work on scope rings.

Thanks for the idea, dcpd.

But I would be obliged if someone would please tell me, please, that the pictured set screw abomination was not devised by the maker.

13 July 2021, 23:26

Atkinson

I use torx screws on all my scopes and tighten by hand, and know where to stop I guess as I never have such problems..Sometimes Ive used rubber cement and it comes off easy but seems to work..but have not used it for years as the problem has never cropped up with me..

Im with you Duane, there just has to be a better way!!

I have noticed on more than a few ocassions that some European scopes have a finish thats slicker n snot, and all but impossible to keep the scope from slipping..Easy fix is don't use them. A couple of our local smiths discovered this and showed me, can't recall the name but it was one of the high dollar brands..Never been a problem with me as I only use Leupolds and have never had such a problem..I hestitate to polish the inside of any rings, as that can be a double edge sword IMO...

13 July 2021, 23:31

Atkinson

Rosin can be hard to remove after rather long periods of time, it hardens like rock..Try rubber cement that saddle makers use..pipe joint thread works also...most of the stuff mention probably works..

13 July 2021, 23:32

Atkinson

It would certainly make scope resale difficult IMO.

14 July 2021, 00:55

RogersGunWorks

Success! I shot the Rigby .400/350 today and had zero scope issues. The solution was to mill metal from the bottom of the ring tabs so there was a gap between them when the screws were tightened. Also added a dab of rosin for good luck.

I encountered difficulties at every stage of installing the H&H mount system due to inferior components from England. Reto Buehler's components are far superior. Overall, there is nothing good to say about the H&H system. Avoid it unless you have an extra $2500 to spend on an archaic, overly complicated mount system. Just another example that good ol' US products and professional, custom gunsmithing are hard to beat.
Roger

16 July 2021, 09:27

sambarman338

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
Rosin can be hard to remove after rather long periods of time, it hardens like rock..Try rubber cement that saddle makers use..pipe joint thread works also...most of the stuff mention probably works..

Not too many saddlers near here, Ray, so can you suggest the brand of that rubber cement? I've used 'rubber solution' glue for laying out chequering patterns and have some Elmer's glue, which seems similar - trouble is both seems near to water soluble and I wonder if they would stay on the job in wet weather.

Modern 1" scopes certainly seem easy to bend, probably because they're alloy not steel, which indicates the need for ring lapping. This I fear may reduce their ability to grip the tube.

Has anyone used the Burris Signature rings? If so, how do you find the plastic inserts grip?

17 July 2021, 07:51

Bobster

Some of the European makers used no rings at all. But a rail made into the bottom of the scope tube. No slippage there.

17 July 2021, 15:53

Clayman

quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
Has anyone used the Burris Signature rings? If so, how do you find the plastic inserts grip?

Since the year they came out! Absolutely 100% my favorite way to mount a scope. They've narrowed down the options over the years (to my dismay), but if they make an something that fits your application, you cannot go wrong with them. No slipping, perfect alignment, and zero ring marks without doing any extra work. I get bummed when I can't use them and have to resort to another style.

17 July 2021, 19:57

Duane Wiebe (CG&R)

quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Maynard Buehler uses rubber cement on his rings. In spite one only one screw on top, never heard of his rings slipping.. and he mounted scope atop heavy doubles to prove the point

No comment on what that did to resale value!

Realistically, that was in the days before owners insisted on spotting scopes mounted to rifles, so inertia played a part.

The wide spread use of leaded stock would seem to require extra torque..to my thinking anyway.

21 July 2021, 03:40

Atkinson

Yep, if folks would just use 2.X to 4X, even 6X scopes that are light in weight, scope problems would be seldom, if ever it seems to me..at least on the outside, the guts being a whole nuther ball game.

21 July 2021, 03:48

Atkinson

Sambarman,
there are many suitable leather cement glues, or rubber cement..I have an old can of Barge thats at least 50 years ld and still good. but Loctite, Fieblings, Titebond, to name a few...I bet you can go on the internets for rubber cement and find what your lookin for...its also protective to finish..

25 July 2021, 13:39

sambarman338

Thanks Ray, and yes Clayman, I love the Burris Signature rings. It is a bit ironic, since Don Burris was a partner in Redfield near the beginning of 'constantly centred reticles', yet his company finally invented something that could make them unnecessary. Their PosiLock could also be a good idea, esp. if made robust enough to really keep the erector tube where you leave it.