Sako extractor - What's all the fuss?

25 February 2004, 18:13

Ok. Ding ding. School is in session

Would someone please edumacate me as to *why* the Sako extractor mod is such a hot item for Remington 700 actions? I've been shooting Remingtons w/ the enclosed bolt face for a number of years, w/ some reasonably smokin' wam loads, and never, ever had a problem (yet, knock on wood!). I've heard dire warnings from old HP shooters (usually Win70 controlled-feed diehards) about it not being a matter of 'if', but 'when'. Fair enough. Everything breaks sooner or later, I guess. What I don't get is exactly how taking a fair sized chunk out of the side of the bolt face, effectively compromising the vaunted Remington 'three rings of steel', and putting a different extractor in is an improvement. Under what conditions is the Sako supposed to work that the Remington doesn't? I guess I'm a little touchy about the safety issue, since I had my first round go off in my face (factory ammo, factory gun) this past fall in a Ruger M77MkII, and in retrospect, would dearly loved to have had the enclosed bolt face on the Remington when that happened! A Sako extractor in a Remington bolt though would have been, from what I've read, pretty much toast and on the way to a gunsmith for a spendy replacement.

What am I missing here?

TIA,

Monte

25 February 2004, 18:33

Saeed

milanuk,

We have used a number of Remingtyon rifles, and never had one extractor fail.

But, that tiny little hook does not inspire confidence, hence why so many people replace it with the much bigger Sako extractor.

We do it on all our own hunting rifles. We consider it as extra insurance.

25 February 2004, 18:35

stubblejumper

I have had one factory remington extractor fail and since then I have had all of my hunting rifles converted to sako extractors.

25 February 2004, 18:48

<9.3x62>

S-jumper:

How did it fail? Just curious.

9.3

25 February 2004, 18:56

Mike375

Monte,

From your posting:

What am I missing here?

They just look terrible.

The magnum bolt face has the rivot.....A rivoted in extractor can make some people break out in hives.

The 30/06 bolt face does not have the rivot and the extractor will rotate in the bolt face with a bit of an overload.

Sometimes the extractor hangs a bit low (due to shape of bolt where the extractor is anchored) and makes it difficult to close the bolt....while the extractor is tearing brass out of the case rim.

The fact that there is a world wide business in converting them to Sako type extractors will tell you something.

But for 99.999999999999999% of shooters and 99.9999999999999999% of Rem 700s they work OK......but for keener people the Rem 700 extractor is only there as something to be removed.

Mike

25 February 2004, 19:02

IdahoCTD

You dont really lose the three rings of steel with a sako extractor. Sure it is machined out but the extractor fills the gap and wont blow out due to the bolt nose recess in the barrel but it might leak a little more gas from a case rupture. There is no comparison between the extraction abilities of the sako and the stocker.

25 February 2004, 19:08

stubblejumper

9.3x62

The extractor did not break but simply stopped extracting cases.I had to push them out with a cleaning rod.

25 February 2004, 19:37

Scrollcutter

I had a factory extractor break. I couldn't tell you the cause.

The rifle was originally an 8mm Mag. I rebarreled it to 375 Holland's and had fired the rifle several times before bluing. The extractor broke the first shot after rebluing. I can't imagine that bluing would weaken the extractor, but nobody has ever been able to give me a satisfactory explanation as to the why of it breaking.

My own opinion is that it had nothing to do with the bluing or the rebarrel job. Rather, a weak or flawed extractor.

By the way, when the extractor fails to work it sort of kills the confidence in that particular make of rifle. I still own a 700, but it is a 243. My big bores are all pre-64 M70's.....so far. I am real keen on a 98 in 404.

26 February 2004, 02:21

milanuk

Quote:

There is no comparison between the extraction abilities of the sako and the stocker.

That's my point. How do you mean that? I've never had a problem one w/ the factory extractor (I'll probably be plagued by a rash of extraction failures now that I've said that). Even w/ some loads that others would consider fairly hot. Sticky bolt and all. From where I'm seeing things, I'd have to darn near blow the gun up before I had extraction failures, and then I've got bigger worries than whether or not the case comes out easily (like hoping all the parts stay on the inside of the gun). Ah, well. Run til failure and then guess I'll see if my POV changes.

Thanks,

Monte

26 February 2004, 02:31

tiggertate

The difference in strength is only a factor for stuck cases. The Sako style engages a lot more of the brass rim and can exert more force before the rim tears. The probability of this being an issue in the field is miniscule compared to the other factors that can put a rifle out of action simply because the rim will probably tear in any case.

26 February 2004, 03:31

IdahoCTD

Quote:

That's my point. How do you mean that? I've never had a problem one w/ the factory extractor (I'll probably be plagued by a rash of extraction failures now that I've said that). Even w/ some loads that others would consider fairly hot. Sticky bolt and all. From where I'm seeing things, I'd have to darn near blow the gun up before I had extraction failures, and then I've got bigger worries than whether or not the case comes out easily (like hoping all the parts stay on the inside of the gun). Ah, well. Run til failure and then guess I'll see if my POV changes.

Thanks,

Monte

Monte,

If you have experienced a sticky bolt then the remington will most likely fail eventually. As was said, the sako extractor will not fail unless it tears the rim off of the case. It's something that may not be worth the cost unless you experience a failure of the factory one but on a DG rifle I would definately have one.

Nathan

26 February 2004, 04:48

beemanbeme

"keener people"......ROFLMAO. If I made my money replacing triggers, "truing" actions, installing sako extractors, etc, I'd try to have everyone believing that the Remington rifle was a disaster waiting to happen. And only by laying my magic hands upon it, could it be made whole. I'd suggest you read the fable of the king that walked naked.

26 February 2004, 06:24

Glen71

Quote:

I am real keen on a 98 in 404.

So am I!

Just trying to figure out what the action mods should cost from someone who has done it (successfully) before.

26 February 2004, 06:33

milanuk

Quote:

If you have experienced a sticky bolt then the remington will most likely fail eventually. As was said, the sako extractor will not fail unless it tears the rim off of the case. It's something that may not be worth the cost unless you experience a failure of the factory one but on a DG rifle I would definately have one.

Nathan

This isn't for a DG rifle, but for a competition match rifle, that has to function flawlessly i.e. 99% is not good enough in the RapidFire segments @ 200 and 300yds. I finally got the ejector tuned to where a loaded round just makes it out of the action, and empties could be collected in an ice cream pail just off to my side.

Monte

26 February 2004, 09:20

IdahoCTD

I guess it depends on where your loads are then. If they tend to be on the warm side or you just dont want to risk it get the sako extractor. There is a really good smith up your way that does sako extractors for 75.00 (it might be cheaper without a bolt face size change). His name is Steve Kostanich. If you need his contact info I can get it for you. BTW I have a 30-378 WBY IMP. on a remington 700 that has had many "warm" loads run through it. The sako extractor has never failed even when I have had to beat on the bolt handle to get the cases out. I guess trying to go over 4000fps with 165 Nosler BT's isn't feasible

. I did get 4000+ with 150's though.

27 February 2004, 10:32

CDH

I have seen a few Remingtons fail to extract factory cases, but not enough to conclude it is a bad design. My favorite part about the M70 and '98 style is the fixed ejector. I don't like chasing cases all over the range to pick them up. With my CRF rifles, just open the bolt slowly and 'pop', the case is hanging out the side of the action, ready to be put in the box for reloading. It never hits the ground to pick up grit and such.

27 February 2004, 11:52

hm2

roger,
i have only seen two broken remington 700 extractors. they were on guns with rivited extractors and they both had been recently reblued. i also sold an extractor to a fellow in alabama. he told me he had taken delivery of his custom rifle that was also reblued. the extractor gave up during the sight in. i don't know what the real corrolation is but in my field we call that a "clue.
max

27 February 2004, 22:48

Brent Moffitt

The Sako won't let you down, the Remington can. You take the chance, but be willing to deal with what happens "when" it does.

I've seen two break, one here just three months ago at the range. I've seen the bolt handle come off on my Dad's 700 as well, have it fixed too, or...

You won;t rip a casehead off with the Sako extractor, it does happen with the Rem, although very seldom. My buddy just had to send his in, his gunsmith told him to. All it needed was a new extraxtor like Chuck figured. It was failing to extract, so I guess that make three that I know of that didn't work at one point. That's three more than any M70, or 700 with a Sako conversion, and that's enough for me.

I like my 700's, but I like 'em better than stock.

28 February 2004, 05:04

SST

In my experience, the Remington extractor is extremely reliable. However, it does have a tendency to chew up brass when that small, but tenacious grip tries to extract a difficult case from the chamber. For most shooters, this makes no difference. For reloaders, especially those shooting wildcat cartridges that require significant case prep and forming, every case is precious, and you don't want the rim chewed up.

Now for the good part. I've never had a Remington extractor fail, although I've heard of it tearing through rims on difficult extractions. I have had a Sako extractor fail on me, but wasn't a failure to extract. When working up loads for a wildcat a couple of years ago, I blew a primer. I was already getting close to the upper limit of pressure when I stopped to clean the bore. I overlooked cleaning oil out of the chamber and blew a primer out of the next round, even though previous rounds with that same load seemed fine. When I got the bolt open, there was no extractor to be found. In fact, I couldn't even find it on the ground (so, I'm blind).

Bottom line, both are reliable extractors. While the Remington extractor is very good, the Sako does grab a little more of the case rim, which can be a good thing for more than one reason.

28 February 2004, 23:07

Brent Moffitt

Sam,
Are you saying you blew the primer from "oil in the chamber"?

29 February 2004, 04:24

dan belisle

I've had one Rem extractor break on me in 30 years, and took out a Sako extractor on a Rem in 340 Wby by, let's say, "loader error". So going by my personal experience, I would say that the Rem is weaker then the Sako (and I'd be right, but for all the wrong reasons), except it's too small a survey sample to make those kind of judgements. Perhaps someone who has dealt with a lot more of them could weigh in. FWIW - Dan

29 February 2004, 06:47

Reed

I have a close friend/gunsmith that has been in business for many years. He's pushing 80 now and would rather shoot a computer than use it...I digress.

We were discussing this point a few years ago and he remarked that the Remington extractor comes in for repair quite often while the other designs rarely if ever come in.

Whether or not the "Sako conversion" is necessary may rely on a variety of factors but I think it's safe to say that the original Remington is the worst of the lot in terms of reliability.

Reed

29 February 2004, 07:58

SST

Brent,
No, oil in the chamber didn't cause the primer to blow. That's almost always excessive pressure. I'm comfortable believing, though, that the additional bolt thrust on an already hot load exacerbated the problem enough to believe it was a contributing factor since I had already fired a few rounds with that powder charge.

29 February 2004, 21:20

Brent Moffitt

Thanks SST. I never figured a higher thrust load would increase the risk of a blown primer, but I could be wrong.

01 March 2004, 07:40

SST

I could be wrong too, but I need something to blame.

I've blown several pimers over the years working with wildcats and improved cartridges, looking for the limit to back down from. I've blown primers on several occasions immediately after cleaning (that was before I started swabbing the chamber with brake cleaner on a wool mop after cleaning). It's usually the first cartridge after cleaning that blows, even if previous loads at the same charge seemed fine. As I mentioned, I was always at the upper threshhold of pressure to begin with when this has occurred. Nothing scientific here, but I always make sure the chamber is thoroughly clean and dry before shooting nowadays.

01 March 2004, 11:10

Brent Moffitt

Worked with some real hot loads more than a few times myself, but yet to blow a primer on anything.... so far. These last ones were in the 78-80K psi range on the Oehler M43 and PressureTrace in the 30/338 Lapua Imp. Primers were cratered .020" high and bolt lift was stiff, sticky extraction after about 73K psi. Seating primers after that were still normal, but this 338 Lapua brass is hell for stout stuff. Still surprised me I didn't have loose primers, or blow one.

I run the headspace real close, .001 - .002" at most, and maybe more than that contributes to the problem as well, looser primer pockets to begin with is something else I just figured would.