What's wrong with Remington 700 safeties? Recall?

08 March 2002, 00:33

Jay, Idaho

Early rifles had a tab on the safety lever that locked the bolt so that it could not rotate when the safety was "on". This prevented the bolt handle from accidently being lifted by brushing against something. The bolt was always completely closed and when the safety was moved to "fire" and the trigger pulled it would go bang. The newer rifles eliminated this feature and allowed the rifleman to open the bolt and remove the cartridges with the safety "on". The problem was that hunters could inadvertanly permit the bolt handle to raise a small amount without realizing it. Then, when the safety is moved to "fire" and the trigger pulled, a lot of the firing pin energy is used to close the bolt. A loud noise scares the game but the gun doesn't go bang.
New system is safer but less desirable to hunters. Just my opinion.

08 March 2002, 01:33

<gone hunting>

ok i went to the remington and cbs web sites, just another reason to by a Winchester.
the woman who shot her son and caused this should have been charged with man-slaughter.

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Death Before Dishonor

08 March 2002, 07:50

<eldeguello>

Basically, there is nothing wrong with Remington afeties, but if you fool around "adjusting" the Reminton trigger mechanism and get it set to where there is insufficient sear engagement, the striker cocking piece can slip over the sear when the gun is placed "on safe", and then the sriker will fall when the safety is disengaged. The test for this is to cock your EMPTY rifle, then put it on and off safe a number of times to see if it snaps when you disengage the safety. I had this happen to me with a Remington 722, and it was my fault because I had set the trigger pull too light. It was a simple matter to remedy, by just adjusting the trigger pull back a little heavier, and making sure the sear was engaging the cocking piece fully when the rifle was cocked.

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Larry

08 March 2002, 10:51

Customstox

gonehunting, you are very ill informed. There have been over 80 cases involving law suits where Remingtons have fired when the safety was released without touching the trigger. Serious injury and death occured. The designer of the trigger saw the flaw a shortly after it came out and suggested an easy fix. Remington chose to do nothing. The problem is in the trigger and not in the adjustment nor in the safety. The problem is still there. Remington seems to ignore that fact. This has been kicked around here for several years.

The father of the boy in Montana did not want a cash settlement along with the gag clause. He wanted Remington to do something. Now they did, and it costs the owners $20 to have it fixed, or at least the safey made so it does not lock the bolt.

[This message has been edited by Customstox (edited 03-08-2002).]

08 March 2002, 11:05

gophershooter

Customstox:You have got it right and there was another similar accident which was settled out of court I believe it was at Great Falls MT.There was an article in the Bozeman Chronicle about a month ago that told of both accidents.I dont see how Remington gets off not correcting the condition for free.

08 March 2002, 13:03

<gone hunting>

my bottom line is that the only safety that works on any gun is the gray matter between your ears
NEVER EVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOUR NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

the cbs news story centered around the woman who shot and killed her son.

my dad tought me long ago that there are no accidents where guns are concerned.

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Death Before Dishonor

08 March 2002, 13:58

Paul H

The rem 700 has never had a safety, just a trigger block. Arguably no firearm has a safety, and should be treated thusly.

08 March 2002, 14:23

<Gary Rihn>

quote:
Originally posted by Paul H:
Arguably no firearm has a safety, and should be treated thusly.

Excellent way to look at it.

08 March 2002, 14:51

Brad

Gonehunting... Chic is right. You're ill-informed.

I have a question for you:

What if you flick-off the safety on your Remington 700 which has the muzzle pointed at the ground, the rifle goes off (FOSR Fire On Safety Release) and the bullet ricochets and kills someone?

Was it your fault?

You had the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, correct?

Isn't it a reasonable assumption that a firearm can be desgined so that it won't inadvertantly discharge when the safety is released?

How else do you clear the chamber on a pre-1982 Model 700, except by taking the safety off?

Again, isn't it a reasonable expectation that a rifle shouldn't occasionally fire-on-safety-release?

The Remington 700 trigger/safety assembly is a seriously flawed design that could have and should have been fixed over forty years ago. Remington has obviously made a decision that it's cheaper to settle suits than fix rifles.

If we as hunters and second ammendment lover's don't hold our industry accountable we'll play right into the anti's hands and a bunch of beaureaucrats will regulate it more than it already is.

This isn't a "pro-gun", "anti-gun" issue... it's a plain and simple product safety issue... it just so happens the product is something which arouses a lot of emotion (pro and con)... this muddies a lot of very simple facts.

If the Remington Co. was a genuine lover of our right to bear arms they would have fixed this years ago rather than cynically exposing millions of 700 owners (and those around them) to this very real problem... all because of their bottom line.

I know the Barb Barber. I'm fortunate to count the Barber's as my friends. Barb grew up hunting and handling firearms. If she says her finger was not on the trigger, it wasn't on the trigger.

This is an all too common problem with the Model 700.

Brad

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 03-08-2002).]

08 March 2002, 16:11

Bill Leeper

I have said before and will say again that although the Remington trigger design may have been flawed it was workable and I've felt that the problem was a problem of quality control. In every rifle I've examined which did fire on safety release (quite a bunch of them) the problem was a dimensional problem wherein the safety did not lift the sear clear of the trigger.
There is not much doubt though that when Remington decided there were indeed some shortcomings in the design they chose to do nothing because they felt that to address the problem would be to admit there was a problem.
This bothers me because in the end everyone loses. Remington (and Mike Walker)gave us the most adjustable trigger on any American bolt action rifle then refused to make changes that would have made it better and safer. They also continue to make triggers that are dimensionally flawed and will fire on release of the safety.
Remington has been in the wrong on this one.
Gonehunting, Your statement that "the woman should have been charged with manslaughter" was offensive to me because it was made without knowledge and was therefor a stupid remark. Regards, Bill.

08 March 2002, 17:01

<waldog>

Are aftermarket/custom triggers a sure solution to this flaw?

just curious

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>>>--------------------->
Toxophilie and carry a bent stick.
<---------------------<<<

09 March 2002, 09:38

<Gary Rihn>

quote:
Originally posted by Brad:
If she says her finger was not on the trigger, it wasn't on the trigger.

Possibly. However, it WAS pointed in an unsafe direction, by anybody's standards.

Let me ask you a question now. Would you point a 3 position safety M70 (reknowned for being a "superior" design), or any other rifle, at your kid while the rifle was loaded?

09 March 2002, 01:46

Rich Elliott

Gary Rihn,

Actually, your question should be "Would you point a 3 position safety M70 (reknowned for being a "superior" design), or any other rifle, at your HORSE TRAILER while the rifle was loaded? As I recall, the boy was behind the horse trailer which the bullet went through.( Correct me if I'm wrong here, anyone).
My opinion (like a'holes...everybody's got one) is that I want my bolt locked down and have actually bought old safties and put them on post '82 rifles. I adjust my Remington triggers to 3 1/2 pounds. This has proven safe to me. I've never had a problem. I have slammed the rifle butt on the floor and pulled the trigger with the safety on...done everything I could to screw them up and I couldn't do it. I did set the trigger way too light on a .25-05 one time and could make it fire by bouncing the butt on the floor. When set back out to 3 1/2 lbs this never happened again. While on the subject, CBS sure screwed up some of the facts. They said the Remington was repairing the bolt lock while, in fact, they are eliminating it. They also said that the rifle had been in production for 50 years. Unless they are including the 721/22 series , the 700 Rem. has been in production since 1962 and that's 40 years. They gave the impression that Remington was just now changing the bolt lock and ,in fact , this has been eliminated since 1982. More factual reporting by the media's number one gun hater...Mr. Rather.

Okay now is the time for someone to call me a Nut!

Rich Elliott

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Ethiopian Rift Valley Safaris

[This message has been edited by Rich Elliott (edited 03-08-2002).]

09 March 2002, 02:11

Pete E

When this first hit the forums, I could not understand what the fuss was and I still can't.

There are two issues here:-

1) The issue surrounding the mechanical function of the rifle and Remingtons dealings with this.

2) Personal gun handling/safety issues.

I don't really know enough *facts* about either aspects to comment, but these issues are not one and the same...

09 March 2002, 03:27

Recono

Well, opinions ARE like a-holes, so here's another.

Safeties suck big donkey dicks. They are an invitation to disaster. They cannot necessarily be depended on, and we all know it. Anyone who presumes to use a safety takes it upon himself to figure out what's going on, and how little he should trust it. The situation described above is not at all unusual with worn 1911's.

That said, the Remington malfunction described above (and the same one with the 1911) is one of the worst kind, obviously.

Anyone wonder why cops carried revolvers for so long, and why people with brains still often choose them?

A friend of mine accidentally killed himself doing something so stupid it's not worth describing, but it pointed up that most rifles and shotguns have "safeties" that aren't. Period.

30 March 2002, 17:16

Augustis

I would assume everybody would want *Their* safeties to function properly at the exact second you would need to depend on it most, Like in a fall ;o)

There was so many in-accurate statements made concerning this issue I just had to make at leased one post and furnish this article.

This would make 2 dead and one person injured in one year in Gallatin County alone involving a Model 700 rifle.

Augustis ><>

"Hunters Death Rulled Accidental"

http://news.mywebpal.com/news_tool_v2.cfm?show=archivedetails&pnpid=311&om=0&ArchiveID=629204

30 March 2002, 17:58

rembo

Well,...I have been grinding off the tab that locks the bolt on any Rem 600/660/722 and 700 I've ever owned and it's about 20 rifles now.I have a habit of checking the position of the bolt handle with my thumb as I carry the rifle.If you are in such thick bush or rough terrain that you feel the need to lock the bolt....maybe you should just unload the chamber?I do.The Remington 700 safety is OK for guys with a bit of mechanical aptitude who know their rifle inside and out.Guys who keep the trigger adjusted within safe limits(this varies per the individual rifle),keeps it clean etc. Guys who never pull the trigger with the safety "ON", just to see if it works,guys who never point the muzzle to parts unknowm when unloading, you know what I mean.Bill Leeper said it right,Mike Walker gave us what may be the greatest trigger ever avaliable to the average rifleman but Remington cast a shadow of doubt upon it by refusing to admit that there may be a problem.I like Model 700's myself,never had a problem with a clean,properly adjusted trigger/safety but I'm glad that my brother and his wife whom I hunt with,who are once a year shooters,carry M70's with the excellent 3 position safety.There's no guessing when unloading one of these.Remingtons are for guys who know how they work and can maintain them.The "average" rifle owner should leave the Rem factory trigger at the 5-8 lb(or whatever it is) factory setting, or buy a Model 70.That's my rant for tonite.

[This message has been edited by rembo (edited 03-30-2002).]

31 March 2002, 12:44

<GunsShooting>

rembo said:
>>I'm glad that my brother and his wife whom I hunt with,who are once a year shooters,carry M70's with the excellent 3 position safety.There's no guessing when unloading one of these.<<

They can still mess up, though... see the link below for more: http://hunting.about.com/library/weekly/aaGA_Thanksgiving2001a.htm (read about what happened on Sunday).

I've seen considerable documentation on the M700 issue, and I am convinced that Remington has been negligent. I just wish they'd do something worthy, rather than this safety recall "compromise."

-Russ

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Russ Chastain
Hunting & Shooting Guide for About.com
Member, Southeast Outdoor Press Association
Web site: http://hunting.about.com
Hunting/Shooting Forum: http://forums.about.com/ab-hunting
Email: hunting.guide@about.com
Free Newsletter: http://hunting.about.com/gi/pages/mmail.htm
.........................................................

01 April 2002, 12:03

Augustis

I wanted to add this link to this thread which will bring it back up to the top and save me typing time.

Augustis ><>

"Trigger Questions" Posted by jdllyons

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/002733.html

01 April 2002, 12:16

<Gary Rihn>

Augustis-

Did you show up just to keep this topic alive? What's your agenda? 5 posts, and you just want to keep bringing this one up. Your style reminds me a lot of Swamp's... post links to other stuff. Take it back to HA.

01 April 2002, 16:24

<BigBob>

Having had the task of going to a home where there has been firearm "accident" more than once. Without exception, these were homes where the firearm was hidden away in a closet, top shelf in the den or some other imagined place of "security". Now I'll be the first to admit that I'm an old goat, but I can still remember that as a child I knew where "EVERYTHING" was hidden in the house. I think kids today are the same way. It's impossible to hide anything from kids. As a result I made sure ALL my children grew up knowing firearms.

There have been several tries to delegate responcibility to Remington in these "CAUSED OCCURRENCES", they are NOT accidents. Perhaps the attitude of today is to shirk personal responcibility, but a firearm discharge is the responcibility of the person holding the firearm. I've seen family members desperately try to shove it off on someone else, perhaps in the hope it may reduce the guilt and pain they have. It seems to me that it always comes back and bites them. The loner it takes, the more destructive the bite. Pray for those in that situation and work like hell to insure it doesn't happen to your family. Good luck

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BigBob

02 April 2002, 04:07

savageshooter

I've always been a believer in the "there are no gun accidents" adage. There are just too many variables when it comes to gun design other factors such as wear on internal parts to depend on the idea of the gun being "safe" when loaded. I was also taught that there is no such thing as a "safety". Gun safety will always be dependant on the person handling the gun. I also feel that a person that kills himself tripping over a log had weighed the idea of having to make noise working the bolt with game in his view vs. his personal safety and the safety of others around him, and made the wrong choice. The fact that there are so many documented accidents with the 700 is a more likely a testament to the popularity of that rifle with the hunting public. Let's face facts, not every person who goes hunting is somebody I want to be around while they're holding a loaded rifle! I wish it were so, and the new requirements for gun safety classes should help with this. Not everyone has had the advantage of learning gun safety from a trusted relative like I did. I know I'm ranting a bit here, but this is something I take very seriously, as most real gun lovers do, but the general public is a different story. Man, do I get nervous when there's a big crowd at the range!

02 April 2002, 10:51

<BILL WALL>

quote:
Originally posted by Brad:
Gonehunting... Chic is right. You're ill-informed.
I have a question for you:
What if you flick-off the safety on your Remington 700 which has the muzzle pointed at the ground, the rifle goes off (FOSR Fire On Safety Release) and the bullet ricochets and kills someone?
Was it your fault?
You had the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, correct?
Isn't it a reasonable assumption that a firearm can be desgined so that it won't inadvertantly discharge when the safety is released?
How else do you clear the chamber on a pre-1982 Model 700, except by taking the safety off?
Again, isn't it a reasonable expectation that a rifle shouldn't occasionally fire-on-safety-release?
The Remington 700 trigger/safety assembly is a seriously flawed design that could have and should have been fixed over forty years ago. Remington has obviously made a decision that it's cheaper to settle suits than fix rifles.
If we as hunters and second ammendment lover's don't hold our industry accountable we'll play right into the anti's hands and a bunch of beaureaucrats will regulate it more than it already is.
This isn't a "pro-gun", "anti-gun" issue... it's a plain and simple product safety issue... it just so happens the product is something which arouses a lot of emotion (pro and con)... this muddies a lot of very simple facts.
If the Remington Co. was a genuine lover of our right to bear arms they would have fixed this years ago rather than cynically exposing millions of 700 owners (and those around them) to this very real problem... all because of their bottom line.
I know the Barb Barber. I'm fortunate to count the Barber's as my friends. Barb grew up hunting and handling firearms. If she says her finger was not on the trigger, it wasn't on the trigger.
This is an all too common problem with the Model 700.
Brad
[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 03-08-2002).]

02 April 2002, 11:08

<BILL WALL>

Brad, NEVER EVER point a loaded Rem.700 at the ground or at or near anyone/person, place or object you do not wish to cause BAD THINGS TO HAPPEN TO!!!! I also have encountered this problem BUT!, No Man, Women nor Child has any business touching any form of weapon unless fully versed on its true intended purpose, function, basic design and all safety aspects and possible legal implications. Thanks, Bill

02 April 2002, 13:57

Augustis

Originally posted by Gary Rihn:
Augustis-

Gary
Why so touchy? I was just looking around when I came upon this thread that interested me as I thought the purpose of these forums were to express/share ideas with other people who share in the enjoyment of shooting sports and hunting,ask questions ETC...

The title of the thread is: "Whats Wrong With Remington 700 Safeties? Recall?" is it not?

As to your comment about my "style" of how I express my ideas and share info with others seems kind of low considering I dont even know you or recollect having dialog with you before (Have I Had The Pleasure?), are you in charge of censorship or have I broken some kind of rule at this apparently really fine site I discovered by chance?

WHATS THE DEAL! Does it offend you because I can bring facts to the table of the issue of what is wrong with the Remington safety and their position, or that I post more that one or two lines at one time?

<<What's your agenda?>>

To discuss this issue rationally in a mature manner, with factual documented info concerning historical events that took place since the conception of the Walker Patented Fire Control materialized In the public mainstream of commerce in 1948 in the Model 721-22 and into the present Models M/700 and M/7.

Is that a problem, do you have any further dialog to add concerning this issue so We can put this behind us and continue with the toppic of "Whats Wrong With The 700 Safety?"
Your position is clear to me, but like I said in another thread, I choose not to bury my head in the sand concerning this issue ;o)
Augustis/OUT for tonight. ><>