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Re: "Hotrodding" the 8x57 M98

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18 February 2004, 03:45
Ricochet
Re: "Hotrodding" the 8x57 M98
If you know the case volume, it'll work with anything.
16 February 2004, 11:09
Major Caliber
That's all fine and well, but I can kill anything in North America with a 200gr partition at 2700fps.
16 February 2004, 07:58
wildcat junkie
Quote:





These Quickload" predictions will be listed by the "incremental" increases in MV for the various chamberings. I will list all 180gr laodings for all chamberings so that the incremental increases in MV can be compared. The 200gr Par predictions will be listed likewise.



Muzzle velocity will be listed in decending order within a chambering. As I am in "edit mode", and can not use the "list" function, the list will be contained in a following post titled "Hotrodding" the 8x57 M98 Cont.





"Hotrodding "the 8x57 M98 cont.



Top five common powder loadings, all with 23 1/2" barrel length



8x57 Mauser, 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tip, 3.150 COL 60000psi







8mm-06, 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tip, 3.34" COL, 60000psi







8mm-06 Ackley Improved, 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tip, 3.34COL, 63000psi







8mm-Steyr Ackley Improved, 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tip, 3.20" COL 63000psi







8X68S, 180gr Nosler Ballistic tip, 3.525" COL 63000psi







So there we have it, none of the steps gives a substantial increase in velocity in itself. The maximum spread from the top 8x57 load to the top 8x68S load is 244fps with an increase of 3000psi and burning 76.5gr of Norma 204 compared to 57.1 gr of Vv N550.



Comparing the top Win 760 loads of 57.6gr for the 8x57 @ 2863fps to 72.9gr for the 8x68S @ 3084fps yields an increase of 221fps for an increase of 15.3grs of powder @ 3000psi more pressure.



Is it all worth it?



It is if you are enjoying it.



As usual, this data is not to be used for reloading data and is purely a hypothetical comparison of different options for rechambering sound M98 Large ring 8X57 barreled actions.



When possible, compare this data to published data for referance.



I will post results for the 200gr Nosler Partition in another post.
16 February 2004, 12:24
Tailgunner
One thing I noticed, and it's probably a typo.
"IMR 4895 96.4% load den. 96.4gr 2697fps 100.0% prop burn 60000psi"
How did you get 96.4gr of anything into a standard 7.92x57 case?
16 February 2004, 09:43
wildcat junkie
Quote:

Quote:





These Quickload" predictions will be listed by the "incremental" increases in MV for the various chamberings. I will list all 180gr laodings for all chamberings so that the incremental increases in MV can be compared. The 200gr Par predictions will be listed likewise.



Muzzle velocity will be listed in decending order within a chambering. As I am in "edit mode", and can not use the "list" function, the list will be contained in a following post titled "Hotrodding" the 8x57 M98 Cont.





"Hotrodding "the 8x57 M98 cont.



Re: Incremental data for 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tip.



So there we have it, none of the steps gives a substantial increase in velocity in itself. The maximum spread from the top 8x57 load to the top 8x68S load is 244fps with an increase of 3000psi and burning 76.5gr of Norma 204 compared to 57.1 gr of Vv N550.



Comparing the top Win 760 loads of 57.6gr for the 8x57 @ 2863fps to 72.9gr for the 8x68S @ 3084fps yields an increase of 221fps for an increase of 15.3grs of powder @ 3000psi more pressure.



Is it all worth it?



It is if you are enjoying it.



As usual, this data is not to be used for reloading data and is purely a hypothetical comparison of different options for rechambering sound M98 Large ring 8X57 barreled actions.



When possible, compare this data to published data for referance.



I will post results for the 200gr Nosler Partition in another post.





"Hotrodding" the 8x57 M98 cont. (200gr Nosler Partition predictions)



Top five common powder loading, all with 23 1/2" barrel length.



8x57 Mauser, 200gr Nosler Partition, 3.125 COL, 60000psi



  • Win 760 100.3% load den. 56.2gr 2733fps 97.5% prop burn 60000psi
  • Vv N550 103.3% load den. 55.6gr 2730fps 99.3% prop burn 60000psi
  • Norma 203B 98.6% load den. 50.9gr 2700fps 100.0% prop burn 60000psi
  • Hodgdon H3380 101.1% load den. 53.9gr 2698fps 99.1% prop burn 60000psi
  • IMR 4895 96.4% load den. 49.7gr 2697fps 100.0% prop burn 60000psi




8mm-06, 200gr Nosler Partition, 3.315" COL, 60000psi



  • Win 760 96.9% load den. 60.1gr 2786fps 98.2% prop burn 60000psi
  • IMR 4350 106.5% load den. 60.1gr 2782fps 97.8% prop burn 60000psi
  • Vv N550 99.8% load den. 59.5gr 2779fps 99.7% prop burn 60000psi
  • Hodgdon H380 97.7% load den. 57.6gr 2747fps 99.5% prop burn 60000psi
  • IMR 4895 93.3% load den. 53.3gr 2747fps 100.0% prop burn 60000psi




8mm-06 Ackley Improved, 200gr Nosler Partition, 3.315" COL. 63000psi



  • Norma 204 107.0% load den. 67.5gr 2867fps 99.2% prop burn 61496psi
  • Win 760 95.4% load den. 64.7gr 2860fps 99.2% prop burn 63000psi
  • IMR 4350 104.9% load den. 64.8gr 2857fps 98.8% prop burn 63000psi
  • Vv N560 107.0% load den. 69.7gr 2852fps 96.2% prop burn 60723psi
  • Vv N550 98.3% load den. 64.0gr 2848fps 100.0% prop burn 63000psi




8mm-Steyr Ackley Improved, 200gr Nosler Partition, 3.175" COL, 63000psi



  • Norma 204 107% load den. 70.5gr 2939fps 99.3% prop burn 62665psi
  • Vv N550 107.0% load den. 72.8gr 2925fps 96.4% prop burn 61831psi
  • Win 760 94.9% load den. 67.3gr 2915fps 99.2% prop burn 63000psi
  • IMR 4350 104.3% load den. 67.3gr 2913fps 98.9% prop burn 63000psi
  • Acc. Arms XMR4350 107.0% load den. 68.3gr 2909fps 100.0% prop burn 61716psi




8x68S, 200gr Nosler Partition, 3.50" COL, 63000psi



  • Norma MRP 107.0% load den. 78.8gr 3033fps 99.9% prop burn 63000psi
  • Alliant Reloader 22 106.8% load den. 77.8gr 2994fps 99.0% prop burn 63000psi
  • Win XMR 105.6% load den. 78.2%gr 2992fps 98.9% prop burn 63000psi
  • Vv N560 103.0% load den. 77.4gr 2972fps 97.8% prop burn 63000psi
  • Norma 204 102.4% load den. 74.6gr 2966fps 99.8% prop burn 63000psi




Now we see something interesting. There is little difference between the 8x57 and the 8mm-06 @ 60000psi, but when we up the pressure and case volume, we start to get a proportionately higher velocity increase with the 200gr Par when compared to the 180gr BT.



Indeed there is now a 300fps difference between the top 8x57 load and the top 8x68S load.



Now, we are getting "more bang for the buck", as well as more recoil I'm sure.



I'm sure that I will here many suggestions, but this comparison gives a pretty good representation of the scope of performance that could be expected from a "rechamber job" with a little magazine work on a sound M98 action with a very good to excellent bore. It would seem a shame to throw away a "perfectly good" 8mm barrel.



I know I haven't included the various "belted magnum" wildcats, but for the life of me I can see no sense wasting limited magazine space with a useless belt! With the 8x68S I can load "3down" and "1 in the pipe". By widening the box to the proper 60* stack angle, I might get "4down".



Besides, if you want, run your own comparisons for anything you don't see here and post it.



Okay, that it, now fire away!
16 February 2004, 18:14
TGetzen
How about some RL-15 data please? I only use one powder, it's a sure way to avoid using the wrong one in the wrong gun.

I settled on RL-15, as it seems to work ok for most of what I reload (7x57, 8x57, 7.65x53, 9.3x62, 416 Taylor). I also load in the mid-range, not near or at max. I'm not the type who tweaks for accuracy in each gun either, just a load that performs decent -- I have several guns in most of those calibers, most w/ open sights. Most shoot better than I can anyway!

Todd
16 February 2004, 17:33
Nitroman
WildCat,

I had the throat of my m98/29 Persian Mauser lengthened 0.300" to allow for seating long 220 grain Hornady bullets. May be a viable option to get extra case capacity for slow powders, increase velocity while keeping pressure down.
16 February 2004, 05:06
wildcat junkie
Since there has been a lot of interest in rechambering the various military M98 Mausers both the "intermediate length" M48 Yugos and the "standard length" actions such as the K98, VZ 24 etc, I have worked up some "Quickload" data for some various options.



For "intermediate length" actions, such as M48 Yugo, VZ500, Herters U9, etc, the only viable option (other than loading the 8x57 to modern pressure) would be the 8mm-Steyr A.I. The 8mmWSM would fit into these actions, but the gunsmithing required would be extensive, including the possibility of barrel replacement being necessary, so I haven't done any "Quickload" calculations for the 8mm WSM.



For "Standard length" actions, such as K98, VZ24, etc, any of the options could be applied.



Pressure levels:



Pressure levels for the 8x57 and 8mm-06 have been kept to 60000psi range to stay near the case design pressure range.



The Ackley Improved versions have been boosted to 63000psi due to the fact that the reduced case taper and 40* shoulder will allow good case life @ these elevated pressure levels. There is no "Standard" version of the 8mm-Steyr as the pressure level of the parent case design is 62366psi. That is very close to the 63000psi level of the A.I. version. Loading a "standard" version compared to an A. I. version seldom yields a substansial velocity decrease. The elevated pressure allowed for by the altered case taper and shoulder angle will yield a few more fps, but the main benefit is the greater case life. It could be argued that perhaps the 8mm-Steyr A.I. could be loaded to 8mm Rem Mag pressure of 66717psi but I think that 63000psi is a realistic ceiling considering that the CIP pressure for the 8x68S is 63816psi. 63000psi will be used for the 8x68S also bearing in mind that we are not @ the max, but near it.



COL:



COL for 8x57 will be 3.150" for the 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tip and .025" less for the 200gr Nosler Partition. These lengths have been about .010" "off the lands" for the 180gr BT in the two K98 barreled action I have as well as a K98 replacement barrel that I got from Numrich. My RCBS dies in both 8x57, 8mm-06 A.I. and my Redding 8x68S dies seat the 200gr Par .025" shorter COL. This shorter COL gives about the same "off the lands" dimension for the 200gr Par. These COL's will also work well for the "intermediate length" actions.



COL for the 8mm-06 and the 8mm-06 A.I. will be 3.34" with the 180gr BT. (standard "06" length) It is quite easy to lengthen the internal magazine length of a K98 to this length with nothing more than a file and perhaps a little work on the bolt stop. Again the 200gr Par will be .025" shorter @ 3.315"



COL for the 8mm-Steyr A.I. will be 3.20" with the 180gr BT. This is about the maximum length that will function through the "intermediate length" actions. The 200gr Par will be .025" shorter @ 3.175"



Col for the 8x68S with the 180gr BT will be 3.525". This is longer than the CIP standard of 3.425", but this length represents what I think is the maximum practical length for this cartridge in the K98 action. An interior magazine length of 3.585" can be attained by lengthening the magazine .150" @ the rear and .120" to the front. Removing .120" from the feed ramp will still allow more material than the "intermediate length" actions have. The COl for the 200gr Par will be .025" less @ 3.50". These magazine length will require considerable "surgery" but are "doable" with some skill with a TIG welder. These longer than CIP lengths will minimize the "intrussion" of the bullet base into the "boiler room". Indeed the 200gr Par will only intrude .045" beyond the neck @ 3.50" COL.



These Quickload" predictions will be listed by the "incremental" increases in MV for the various chamberings. I will list all 180gr loadings for all chamberings so that the incremental increases in MV can be compared. The 200gr Par predictions will be listed likewise.



Muzzle velocity will be listed in decending order within a chambering. As I am in "edit mode", and can not use the "list" function, the list will be contained in a following post titled "Hotrodding" the 8x57 M98 Cont.
16 February 2004, 13:22
wildcat junkie
Quote:

One thing I noticed, and it's probably a typo.

"IMR 4895 96.4% load den. 96.4gr 2697fps 100.0% prop burn 60000psi"

How did you get 96.4gr of anything into a standard 7.92x57 case?





OOPS! That should have been 49.7gr IMR 4895.



Major Caliber:



That's kind of the point. The 8x57 (when not loaded to SAAMI specs) IS capable of killing "anything in North America". People like to have choices. They want something different, faster, better, etc.



What I am trying to do here is show the actual performance levels of the various options.



One thing that is apparent, the 8mm-06 has no real advantage over the 8x57 except for the fact that "06" brass is easier to find. One pass through the 8mm-06 sizing die and viola, 8mm-06 cases. I make 8x57 cases from once fired "06" GI brass. It's a little more complicated than that. There is no real performance advantage though.



But, what the 8x57 will do with a 200gr Partition @ 2700fps, the 8x68S will do farther @ 3033fps.



The 8x68S will have as much energy @ 150yds as the 8x57 has @ the muzzle. When using 2000 ft #'s as a minimum requirement for Elk, the 8x68s will carry that much energy to almost 450yds.



I have routinely harvested several Whitetails (7) over the last 3 yrs @ 230yds and more with both a 280 Rem with a 139gr bullet @ 3100+ fps and an 8mm-06 A.I. with a 180gr BT @ 2960fps. The flat trajectory makes range estimation unecessary out to 300yds, I hold for the center of the rib cage. A 200gr Partition @ 3033fps would allow me to "hold on hair" when shooting @ Elk to 450yds.
17 February 2004, 05:08
Ricochet
The other day as I was setting up at the range, another fellow was shooting what looked like an M48 that immediately got my attention by emitting a fireball and blast about like my .300 Weatherby Magnum. He was shooting old milsurp ammo with copper-nickel jacketed bullets that I later identified as Turkish, 1942 production. (I've got the cases.) The primers showed slight cratering but weren't flattened excessively, and I don't see any of the usual signs of excessive pressure on the cases, but those things must've been hot! The fellow was an unsophisticated shooter who knew nothing about the gun except that it was a Mauser and boasted about how he'd never touched the sights but it was always right on at 50, 100, 200 or 300 yards!
17 February 2004, 05:44
wildcat junkie
Quote:

How about some RL-15 data please? I only use one powder, it's a sure way to avoid using the wrong one in the wrong gun.

I settled on RL-15, as it seems to work ok for most of what I reload (7x57, 8x57, 7.65x53, 9.3x62, 416 Taylor). I also load in the mid-range, not near or at max. I'm not the type who tweaks for accuracy in each gun either, just a load that performs decent -- I have several guns in most of those calibers, most w/ open sights. Most shoot better than I can anyway!

Todd



Well Todd; Ya want to be a little more specific?

I will need the cartridge, barrel length, COL (or AOL if you prefer that term), weight and brand of bullet.
17 February 2004, 05:59
wildcat junkie
Crazyquik:

I sent you a PM a few minutes ago. Did you get it?

My computer "spit up a hairball" when I submitted it.
17 February 2004, 05:51
Crazyquik
Some of the Turkish ammo is known to be hot.

A gentleman who made a nice webpage chronographed some, '42 and '51 vintage, pushing 154/156 grain bullets at over 2900 fps from a 29" barrel.

In a 24" barrel he got ~2775 and ~2750.

I shot about 100 rounds of milsurp ammo in my 1940 Turk last weekend, and got one sticky bolt lift. I believe this was from a 1944 Czech-produced-under-German occupation load. The brass had a verticle discoloration near the base of the cartridge. Primers all looked fine.
17 February 2004, 10:16
Cal Sibley
I don't mean to cry wolf, but shooting full loads in some of the old mauser 98's is a cause of concern to me. I just ordered the new Remington Classic in 8x57. That should take the worry out of being close. I love the cartridge, just don't trust some of the old rifles. Let the good times roll. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal
17 February 2004, 07:54
Major Caliber
Quote:

Some of the Turkish ammo is known to be hot.

A gentleman who made a nice webpage chronographed some, '42 and '51 vintage, pushing 154/156 grain bullets at over 2900 fps from a 29" barrel.

In a 24" barrel he got ~2775 and ~2750.

I shot about 100 rounds of milsurp ammo in my 1940 Turk last weekend, and got one sticky bolt lift. I believe this was from a 1944 Czech-produced-under-German occupation load. The brass had a verticle discoloration near the base of the cartridge. Primers all looked fine.



That would be the correct velocity in 8x57 military ammo.
17 February 2004, 11:18
Major Caliber
I trust a $50 M98 more than I would trust ANY Rem 700!!!
17 February 2004, 18:36
Clark
wildcat junkie,

How do you get Quickload to estimate 8mm-06 Ackley?

It didn't come in the can with my programFrowner





Major Caliber,

My Rem 700 may not be as safe as my '98 Mausers, but it is the Sako extractor modifications that scare me.