03 February 2002, 02:19
D Humbarger
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NRA Life member
My vote goes to the 8mm-06 Ackley Improved
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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!
I think you�re right when choosing the 8-06AI. The 8x64 has nearly the same prestanda, but the cases are hardly available. I think the only manufacturer of cases and ammo today is the Sellier and Bellot. Brenneke has also restarted some production, but it�s scarce and hard to get - and horribly expensive (www.brenneke.de). For the 8mm-06 you have all you need without difficulties - the 8x64 is next until obsolete. If you like metrics the 8x60 does the same job with about 20 fps slower bullet. RWS still makes it.
But your own decision is the best: go with the 8mm-06 AI.
Best regards,
Fritz
quote:
Originally posted by Fritz Kraut:
I think you�re right when choosing the 8-06AI. The 8x64 has nearly the same prestanda, but the cases are hardly available.
Dear Fritz: how many companies make new 8mm-06 and 8mm-06 AI cases ? Maybe many readers here could benefit from this knowledge ? ;-)
Carcano
quote:
Originally posted by Fritz Kraut:
The 8x64 has nearly the same prestanda (...). I think the only manufacturer of cases and ammo today is the Sellier and Bellot. Brenneke has also restarted some production, but it�s scarce and hard to get - and horribly expensive (www.brenneke.de).
For the US readers, one might also point to the less comprehensive (but English-language) website
http://www.brennekeusa.com
And their email address is... *drumroll*:
brennekeusa@clinton.net
If you now spilled your Saturday morning coffee and choked on your pretzel, my regrets are with you *smile* - the appalling domain name is due to the innocent fact that they are based in Clinton, IA 52733-1481, and that they use a local Internet provider...
quote:
If you like metrics the 8x60 does the same job with about 20 fps slower bullet. RWS still makes it.
And at an appalling price, too (incidentally, in the 8 x 60 S, the new DK bullet has succeeded the older H-Mantel bullet). However, case forming from common cases is almost as simple as with the 8 x 64 and 8mm-06, and the merits of the 8 x 64, the 8 x 60 and the 8mm-06 towards to the 8 x 57 are rather relative - a few m/s more, and a slightly lower trajectory. As you know, I have an 8 x 60 S and like it, but I would never claim that it could do many things the venerable 8 x 57 IS couldn't.
Best regards,
Carcano
[This message has been edited by carcano91 (edited 02-02-2002).]
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Endeavor to Persevere
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NRA Life member
If I'm buying a rifle already assembled, 8x64S.
But don't forget, it wasn't too long ago that most people would have voted that if you went too far out into the ocean, you would fall off the side of the Earth...
quote:
Originally posted by SamB:
If I'm building a new rifle, 8mm/338 Win Mag (reamer available at www.reamerrentals.com).If I'm buying a rifle already assembled, 8x64S.
I see your point, Sam and Dan (or at least i believe I might). While European users might immediately think first of the 8 x 68 S (common and popular as it is), the .338 Win basic case has one big advantage - in spite of its silly and superfluous belt -: that its length of about 64 mms is still reconcilable with standard-length Mauser M 98 actions. I admit that is a significant and useful consideration.
The heretic counter-question (why would one wildcat down a perfectly good .338 WinMag by one half millimeter ?) be better not asked, since the "8mm" was just the presupposition of this thread :-)
Incidentally, a new German wildcat has emerged (concocted by my good acquaintance Lutz Moeller): the 8,5 x 64, based on a necked-down 9,3 x 64 basis case. Its advantages (and its edge over e.g. the well-known twenty-years old 8,5 x 63 Reb) are obvious; Lutz explains it in detail on his website. Performance on game apparently is very satisfactory.
Regards,
Carcano
quote:
Originally posted by Bear Claw:
Leave it 7.92x57 & load it like it should be loaded.
Bear claw: Your alternative is an excellent choice, but for the sake of argument, (mr carcono coming off as a sanctimonious pompous a$$ in this case) we are talking about rechambering here. My appologies for not clarifying that point sir. The 8x57js is an excellent cartridge when loaded to "adult" pressure levels as you prescribe.
This thread is concerned with the option of rechambering only. It seems that mr carcano has come down from the mountain (on another thread) with the stone tablets that proclaim:
Thou shalt not rechamber an 8x57 M98 Mauser to 8mm-06!
Thou shalt rechamber to 8x64 only!
If thee rechamber to 8mm-06 thou shalt commit blasphemy against the inviolable and sacrosanct 8x64!
Thou shalt tremble in fear before the wildcat cartridge, it is the work of Satin!
Thou shalt be "terminally stupid" if thee doth not heed the devine word of Saint carcano and followeth him to the promised land!
GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!
Sam B: I like the idea of the 8mm/338 Win mag, I just am not thrilled with the useless belt taking up magazine space. How about an 8x68 shortened to 60mm with a 9mm long neck? Load it to 3.200" COL and chamber in a 48Yugo, or a standard length M98 with no mods to the magazine. Should come close to the 8mm/338 Win mag don't you think.
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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!
[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 02-02-2002).]
[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 02-02-2002).]
I can get once fired 30-06 brass for .04cents each if I wanted at the local range. (by the handfulls) into my bucket, If I wanted that is... The 8mmx64s has a longer neck... It would require .280 Remington brass. Not impossible, just impractical....
Scout...
quote:
Originally posted by scout:
I can get once fired 30-06 brass for .04 cents each if I wanted at the local range. (...) The 8mmx64s has a longer neck... It would require .280 Remington brass.
Not. Meaning, in a longer sentence, that it does not "require" .280 Rem or factory fresh 8 x 64 brass.
You just once again disproved your own point. Well, why do you think that reloading manuals - as well as yours truly - point out that the 8 x 64 S can be simply reformed from many choices of existing brass, such as .30-06, .35 Whelen, .270, .280, 7 x 64 (this latter with a wee bit more work, including first-time fireforming) ? Because it is practical and feasible.
And now to the length "problem". Apparently this is an issue that you are
a) not familiar with (but no reproach intended, that's why most of us are here - to exchange views, to learn, and to get familiar with new things), but
b) are also defiantly disinclined to ask about.
So sorry. A simple question would probably have brought you the light...
Okay, here I have a heap of once-fired fired .30-06 brass, fresh from the range. Just for the fun of it, I measured their case lengths. They are now all situated between 63,2 and 63,5 mms, mostly miking at 63,3 mms; cases fired in self-loaders may be longer.
And the 8 x 64 S has a stipulated CIP *maximal* admissible case length of 64 millimeters.
Now, to the process of "case trimming". I do not know how familiar you are with it, but it is a pretty common and basic procedure (it is also safety/pressure relevant, but let's not get too technical). When reloading for the 8x64 S as well as for any other cartridge, one will usually trim all the cases of one lot to an equal length; and this very length will be a bit shorter than the max case length. So, yes, a trimmed and ready-to-be-fired 8 x 64 case may be 63,5 millimeters long. Quite close to a fired untrimmed .30-06 case.
Your point now being ? Moot. :-)
As an afterthough, neck length is of minor importance for performance, unless one be a benchrester. Far more important is the best seating depth of the bullet (distance from the lands). Shoot one lot of cases with 63 mms length and one with 64 mms, it won't make much of a difference for hunting purposes. What is important is that the neck be still long enough to hold a bullet firmly (once an occasional problem with the .300 Savage e.g., which only had a 5,60 mms neck). The 8 x 64 S has about 8,41 mms neck length, which is a bit more than the 8 x 57 IS. The 7mm Rem Mag, for comparison, has 6,89 mms neck length, the .280 has 8,66 mms. In any case, even a 63mm casing will hold a bullet firmly enough.
Sincere regards,
Carcano
[This message has been edited by carcano91 (edited 02-02-2002).]
I do agree with Bear Claw totally. If I "had" to do a wildcat on a 8mm barrel, I would do it in a 9.3X64 Brenneke case and get something out of it. I don't do it as they are ultimately a waste of money and generally there is no market for it. As a casual user or hunter that doesn't have to figure into the picture until you want to get rid of it. And "getting rid of it" will be the proper term. Wildcats are tough to sell, the market is extremely limited and you never get any value out of them.
quote:
Originally posted by carcano91:
Dear Fritz: how many companies make new 8mm-06 and 8mm-06 AI cases ? Maybe many readers here could benefit from this knowledge ? ;-)Carcano
Well Carcano,
perhaps my reasons didn�t become quite clear there, but I think it�s much easier to get .30-06 cases for forming than 8x64 or 7X64 in America.
And, me thinks, if he wants some tougher performance, the best choice would be the 8mm-06AI.
I don�t think our little disagreement is worth irony or sarcasms.
OK?
Fritz
[This message has been edited by Fritz Kraut (edited 02-03-2002).]
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NRA Life member
[This message has been edited by Bear Claw (edited 02-03-2002).]
quote:
Originally posted by Bear Claw:
Hey Carcano where can I get some data/photos of that 8.5x64? It looks like it might be very close to a 338-06. I hope the Germans moved the shoulder forward to create a larger boiler room.
You are welcome. Here is the cartridge URL:
http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/8,5x64/8,5x64_Patrone.htm
The shoulder has indeed been moved forward slightly, P-2 is wider and the shoulder angle steeper (35 degrees).
The gunsmith who has the reamer and made the gun lives only a few kilometres away, and i see him regularly. So, if there is anything you want to know, feel free to ask...
Regards,
Carcano
quote:
Originally posted by Customstox:
WC,
I happen to agree with Carcano and don't see where he was stating any of those claims you made against him. He comes across as a knowledgable person whereas you come across as a irritable know it all. The last time someone offered different views you took it as "venting". Sit back, take a prozac and accept that there are different approaches to things and try growing up.
You certainly have a right to your opinion, and I to mine.
When reading some of the other responses to this thread, it seems that I am not the only one tiring of mr carcano's "sarcasms"!
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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!
quote:
Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
You certainly have a right to your opinion, and I to mine.
I prefer informed knowledge to uninformed stubbornness, especially in the field which we are examining here. Your mileage may vary, and you indeed have all the right to such variation as you wish.
quote:
When reading some of the other responses to this thread, it seems that I am not the only one tiring of mr carcano's "sarcasms"!
a) I suppose Ugol's law applies here as well as everywhere else in the Internet. You'll find another tired soul, I am sure.
b) If you insist upon mistaking and mis_feeling_ facts and information as sarcasm (see my posting of 22:50 hours yesterday), you are sadly bound to suffer a very distressful and emotionally draining online life. Please accept my sympathy; while I shall nonetheless endeavour to inform you.
c) The idea of using a 9,3 x 64 case as a basis (if one "had" to make a wildcat), is appealing. It is the most sensible idea (shortening an 8 x 68 is self-defeating); the only other case, which is a rarity of its own, is the 10,75 x 68, from whence the 9,3 x 63 is derived. A rifle for this latter cartridge is apparently owned and used by one of the gentlemen here on the boards; as I recently learned.
Carcano
[This message has been edited by carcano91 (edited 02-03-2002).]
Chic Worthing
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NRA Life member
quote:
Originally posted by carcano91:
a) I suppose Ugol's law applies here as well as everywhere else in the Internet. You'll find another tired soul, I am sure.Methinks I would have a very short search in your case!
b) If you insist upon mistaking and mis_feeling_ facts and information as sarcasm (see my posting of 22:50 hours yesterday),
Are you in your parallel universe again? That post had nothing to do with me.
you are sadly bound to suffer a very distressful and emotionally draining online life. Please accept my sympathy; while I shall nonetheless endeavour to inform you.Your sympathy is neither sought or required thank you!
[This message has been edited by carcano91 (edited 02-03-2002).]
It is not the facts that are being taken as sarcasm, but your arrogant attitude, and the way you tend to talk down to us poor "terminally stupid" souls!
quote:
Originally posted by Customstox:
Carcano,
Well said. BTW, what is the price of 9.3X64 Brenneke brass in Germany? There is only one source here and he only has it once a year and it is a bit pricey.
Dear Chic,
I have not yet sought long for the very cheapest possible source, but the two large outfitter chains here offer new RWS brass for about 19 Euro /20 or 90 Euro /100. Once-fired brass would probably cost 1/2 or 1/3. Are you interested ?
Regards,
Carcano
[This message has been edited by carcano91 (edited 02-04-2002).]
quote:
Originally posted by hd352802:
Carcano, could you send me the details to form 8x64 cases out of 7x64 brass?
Don't let Wildcat.....spoil your posts,they are wellplaced,in my opinion.
Hugh.
It makes a difference where you live, Metric brass is hard to find in the USA.
quote:
Originally posted by scout:
GSF1200, you should not have said that, car is going to beat you up.....
Maybe, I'm not so easy to beat up?
I can find metric brass quite easily in my Midway (or Wideners, or Graf & Sons, or Sinclair) catalog. My telephone is also easy to find. The combination of the two will allow me to find metric brass on my front doorstep.
Any brass (other than .22LR) is hard to find at my range, as most folks there are reloaders and keep their brass.
Would appreciate any information and how I can acquire some.
Chic
[This message has been edited by Customstox (edited 02-06-2002).]
I never met a wildcatter that took cost into consideration unless he was scribbing an article for some magazine...
A wildcatter that takes cost into consideration is a walking, talking, breathing, oxymoron....
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Ray Atkinson
quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
Common since tells me the 8x64 will shoot circles around the 8mm-06 performance wise.
Given that case specs listed on the other thread would suggest that the case capacities would be similar,(yes the shoulder is moved forward some on the 8x64, but the diameter @ the shoulder is smaller) how is this possible?
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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Belisle:
Bruce, the 8mm Mauser is the 8 x 57 (otherwise known as the 7.9 x 57). After WWI to avoid the ban on military calibers, the manufacturers started chambering (and rechambering) the 8 x 60. It's just a little longer in the case.
Right. Performance of the 8 x 60 I/R/S is a bit better than the 8 x 57 I/R/S in case of the "normal" loads. However, the hotrod "Magnum" and "Magnum-Bombe" loads of the interwar years were definitely a step up.
quote:
The 7 x 64 had been around for awhile, and they decided to open up the neck for an 8mm bullet, hence the 8 x 64.
Uhhh...well... The 8 x 64 was introduced in 1912 by Wilhelm Brenneke als a military proposal; and indeed it was inspired either by the longer case of the .30-06 or by the excellent civilian German 9 x 63 M/88. The 7 x 64 (ever so popular) was introduced only later, in 1917.
Source: (Olgierd Graf Kujawski): Geschichte des Unternehmens Wilhelm Brenneke 1895-1995, 1995 Langenhagen
quote:
As for performance differences, as they (8mm-06 and 8 x 64)have almost identical case capacities, I would not expect any more variation between identical rifles then is the statistical norm.
Which is why reloading data are fairly exchangeable also, usual precautions notwithstanding.
Regard,
Carcano
[This message has been edited by carcano91 (edited 02-07-2002).]