The Accurate Reloading Forums
Who's the best...
22 March 2019, 07:39
GreyghostWho's the best...
So who are AR's great gun smiths today, those still running a working business, with a following and good rep. And those willing to take on a custom wildcat project, without pay?
Phil
quote:
Originally posted by Greyghost:
So who are AR's great gun smiths today, those still running a working business, with a following and good rep. And those willing to take on a custom wildcat project, without pay?
Phil
I only know a couple, but they work for pay so probably not worth mentioning them.
_________________________________
AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim.
22 March 2019, 15:39
Dan StoneIf the guy is still running a working business he sure can't afford to do much without getting paid.
22 March 2019, 16:23
gasgunnerBut sometimes it feels like we are doing it for free. The OP forgot to mention that he wants it done while he waits also.
John
22 March 2019, 17:12
shootawayGoing to a gunsmith is almost like going to a dentist.
22 March 2019, 21:07
max(hm2)not only waits but wants to instruct also
White Oak Armament for AR work. Recommending this for projects where the customer is going to pay money for the project, obviously. If you want somebody who's a good gunsmith, a competitive shooter, and not just someone to assemble and disassemble AR15 parts, John Holliger's the guy.
Good guy if you ever over open a Remington bolt face and need to learn how to bush the bolt, too.
23 March 2019, 00:06
Nitro ExpressLeaving off the "without being paid" part, I'd say Roger Ferrell in Fayetteville, GA (Atlanta area), d/b/a Roger's Gun Works, is about as good as they come.
770-460-0533, rogersgunworks@yahoo.com
LTC, USA, RET
Benefactor Life Member, NRA
Member, SCI & DSC
Proud son of Texas A&M, Class of 1969
"A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?" Robert Browning
23 March 2019, 18:19
p dog shooterIt always amazes me how many people who approach people with a business.
Asking them to do things for them for free.
Do they as a carpenter to build a deck for free.
Do they ask a plumber to fix their plumbing for free.
23 March 2019, 20:09
Duane Wiebe (CG&R)I'll be charitable......MAYBE Grey Ghost was making an attempt at humor. Didn't work!
26 March 2019, 07:20
Greyghost"Bunch of Insults"
and,
Not one asked what the project might be.
No one said or suggested work for free... was just your all's assumption.
Point was that too many of you all want to be paid in advance, with customer taking all the risk up front on someone's reputation alone, and quite often get taken to the cleaners.
Post to me at least verified the opinion.
Phil
26 March 2019, 07:35
biglukeWOW!
26 March 2019, 08:03
Toomany ToolsYou must have worked with gunsmiths I don’t know. I, for example, never asked for a penny up front. I’ve had thousands of dollars of my money in projects, and refused any payment until customer was satisfied. I’ve always shipped said projects to customers all over the country, insisting they were satisfied before sending me any money. So who carries the risk? It certainly wasn’t the customers.
John Farner
If you haven't, please join the NRA!
26 March 2019, 08:15
Fjoldquote:
Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
You must have worked with gunsmiths I don’t know. I, for example, never asked for a penny up front. I’ve had thousands of dollars of my money in projects, and refused any payment until customer was satisfied. I’ve always shipped said projects to customers all over the country, insisting they were satisfied before sending me any money. So who carries the risk? It certainly wasn’t the customers.
I can vouch for that. I tried to send a deposit, even just to pay for the new barrel and John wouldn't let me.
Frank
"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953
NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite
26 March 2019, 09:16
Charles_Helmquote:
And those willing to take on a custom wildcat project, without pay?
I did not read that as "without a deposit."
26 March 2019, 17:11
hogfarmerI think it's entirely reasonable for a gunsmith to require the cost of parts be paid upfront. Acquire all necessary parts ahead of time if that is a concern.
"For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind..."
Hosea 8:7
26 March 2019, 18:51
gunmakerquote:
Originally posted by Greyghost:
Point was that too many of you all want to be paid in advance,
Phil
Phil
What do you do for a living?
26 March 2019, 19:21
Mike_DettorreOriginally posted by Charles_Helm
quote:
quote:
And those willing to take on a custom wildcat project, without pay?
I did not read that as "without a deposit."
Charles,
That's because you read it based on what it actually says
MikeLegistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.
What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
26 March 2019, 19:24
marley7x57Perhaps "without pay" is the new California way. Can't blame a guy for trying.
26 March 2019, 23:51
Doug Wquote:
Originally posted by marley7x57:
Perhaps "without pay" is the new California way. Can't blame a guy for trying.
Yeah, if it works.... count me IN!!
27 March 2019, 06:21
Fjoldquote:
Originally posted by marley7x57:
Perhaps "without pay" is the new California way. Can't blame a guy for trying.
Nope, I'm in California and its not the way here.
Frank
"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953
NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite
27 March 2019, 07:52
ElCaballeroAt first I thought this was just some drunken drivel designed to piss people off. I’m not totally convinced I was wrong, but since it has turned into a semi intelligent conversation about down payments for custom work to be done, here are my thoughts.
I don’t see anything wrong with a gunsmith to ask for a down payment when they are to provide some or all of parts for said work. Most custom or special orders require this across all businesses. If I am delivering all parts including any special tools (ie reamers for odd or wildcat calibers) I would question down money.
If a smith decides he does not require down, more power to him. If you don’t want to put money down then you need to find that smith. I don’t think anybody should tell someone else how to run their business.
Here's another shout out for Too Many Tools. He even kept me posted on the progress of the project when I used his services, and was early on his projected due date. Great guy, even though he served in the Air Force rather than the Corps.
TWL
114-R10David
28 March 2019, 19:40
butchlambertquote:
Originally posted by Greyghost:
"Bunch of Insults"
and,
Not one asked what the project might be.
No one said or suggested work for free... was just your all's assumption.
Point was that too many of you all want to be paid in advance, with customer taking all the risk up front on someone's reputation alone, and quite often get taken to the cleaners.
Post to me at least verified the opinion.
Phil
Young feller, Uh Phil, You're on the wrong forum. You might try Angie's list.
28 March 2019, 23:56
customboltGreyghost;
Two different inquiries there? One is about the best gunsmith(s), other is seeking a partner in a wildcat project?
Wording is everything. Been guilty of confusing folks from being too short on words too. Seems to be the issue here.
Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can.
29 March 2019, 23:54
GreyghostMaybe a little of both, last 3 builds have been totally screwed up, with me supplying all parts and large deposits.
Last one cost me $2k in lost deposit and took me nearly 2 years to get all my tooling back, and that was only because I ran across one of their employees online by accident.
Project left me with a big distrust.
What type of work do I do... someone asked. 45 years of moving heavy machinery (factory's) Millwright, Teamsters, and Operating engineers. I've tore apart, moved, and reassembled machines bigger than most houses, Moved nearly every aircraft plant and steel mill we use to have in California, not to mention work on all the military installations. I've done more machining, welding, and installations than I care to think about.
as to other questions about pay up front... practically never! and anyone that would pay a carpenter in advance is short on thinking.
Long retired now, and don't have access to things I'd like to have or I'd do everything myself.
Age and circumstances don't always allow what you'd like.
Phil
30 March 2019, 03:35
gasgunnerYour typical AR smith is not going to know much about wildcats and what it takes to get one running in an AR-15. Most are just parts assemblers. You will need one that does his own barrel work and knows how to set up the gas system for the type of cartridge you are making. Some do this all the time, most do not.
As for pay, to each his own, many ways to run a business. That being said, you will look long and hard for someone to do your one off pet project without any money up front. I could maybe see Duane Wiebe or James Anderson building a standard caliber rifle in a relatively standard configuration without being paid up front as they probably have a list as long as your arm of people who would buy it if the person who commissioned it defaults. Not saying they would do this, just don't think they stand to loose to much. Whole nuther story when it is your favorite wildcat. While I am sure your cartridge is a fine cartridge, the truth is they won't be able to move it for anywhere near what they have in it. The more odd the request, the more you will likely have to put down.
These people
mad dog weapons seem to do a lot of wildcats on the AR platform, you might give them a try. They may even already have something very similar to what you have in mind.
John
30 March 2019, 06:28
customboltHeck I thought he meant Accurate Reloading 'smiths.
If your interests are for 'AR platform' rifles then that is a horse of a totally different breed than commonly discussed here.
My handful of dealings with 'smiths required enough money down to cover parts that needed to be ordered and in one case I had to pay half of the cost of a reamer for a 6.5 Creedmoor project. Some didn't require any deposit. The firearm I sent them was enough collateral. Most all were bolt action blued steel custom rifles plus a Dakota Model 10.
The AR-based guys are a whole other breed.
Tons of good knowledgeable people on AR. You are essentially running an ad for help. Be specific.
Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can.
31 March 2019, 05:47
ElCaballeroquote:
Originally posted by Greyghost:
Maybe a little of both, last 3 builds have been totally screwed up, with me supplying all parts and large deposits.
Last one cost me $2k in lost deposit and took me nearly 2 years to get all my tooling back, and that was only because I ran across one of their employees online by accident.
Project left me with a big distrust.
What type of work do I do... someone asked. 45 years of moving heavy machinery (factory's) Millwright, Teamsters, and Operating engineers. I've tore apart, moved, and reassembled machines bigger than most houses, Moved nearly every aircraft plant and steel mill we use to have in California, not to mention work on all the military installations. I've done more machining, welding, and installations than I care to think about.
as to other questions about pay up front... practically never! and anyone that would pay a carpenter in advance is short on thinking.
Long retired now, and don't have access to things I'd like to have or I'd do everything myself.
Age and circumstances don't always allow what you'd like.
Phil
Why didn’t you start with that?
31 March 2019, 18:41
LesBrooksI have been keeping up on this post and have always wondered what you want made.
I believe that if you would have giving all the info someone would be willing to do some or all of the work. Maybe some people like myself are old and retired, but might be up to helping.
When I worked fulltime in the Ewell Cross Gun Shop, Ft. Worth we only made custom requests in the off season. I only had time to make a couple of stocks per year. I remember making a custom 375 H&H for a customer that we didn't have a down payment up front. I notified him and had no contact back for 4 months. Mr. Cross put the rifle up for sale and it sold quickly. Then the person came by to get the rifle. I told him what happened and he put up a deposit so I would get started on another rifle for him. The new rifle was completed in a month and he came out to get the 375 H&H.
I don't believe that anyone still trying to feed the family would be willing to do this project. I would suggest you try to find someone who is retired and maybe we could help you.
My DVD projects are sold just to pay for the equipment needed to make available to the public some of my work. I know I have not made enough to pay for the cameras, PC, printer, paper, DVD blank disks, and shipping. My hope is to make some of the younger people aware of how to do some work as a beginner.
Sometime a free project will payoff.
Les Brooks, retired grumpy old man
01 April 2019, 06:11
Duane Wiebe (CG&R)I sill maintain..If grey ghost was trying to get into stand up comedy,,he better keep his day job.
02 April 2019, 09:34
GreyghostComedy I'll leave that up to you and your antics.
I try to be serious when spending my hard earned cash. And putting it into the hands of a supposedly gun smith that can't put out work any better than a junior high shop student, isn't one of them!
Phil
02 April 2019, 16:04
Duane Wiebe (CG&R)Oh...I don't do comedy..or antics...and YBYSA I ask upfront money (in most cases)
02 April 2019, 18:05
butchlambertquote:
Originally posted by Greyghost:
Comedy I'll leave that up to you and your antics.
I try to be serious when spending my hard earned cash. And putting it into the hands of a supposedly gun smith that can't put out work any better than a junior high shop student, isn't one of them!
Phil
Phil, it appears that you didn't vet your smith. A lot of good ones out there, just check them out. I don't think you helped yourself with your thread.
04 April 2019, 06:30
GreyghostFinding a smith isn't the problem, finding a good smith (one that knows what he is doing and is honest is a whole different story...
Sometimes the best way is just to watch the reactions of people to your question.
As to my build, I already have everything but the labor and the machines.
Phil
10 April 2019, 21:08
AtkinsonThis thread is pointless IMO..
Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120
rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com