Yugo M48 to 8mm-06

19 January 2002, 13:08

wildcat junkie

I have two VZ500 actions. These are commercial large ring Intermediate M98 actions made in Yugoslavia in the mid 1960s. Perhaps they are the same as the 48 Yugos. The mag wells measure 3.225". there is very little room for expansion, unlike the standard M98 that allow about .075" lengthening with nothing more than some file work and a little grinding on the bolt stop. These (the intermediates) would be great actions for rechambering to .376 Steyr or how about an 8mm (or any for that matter) WSM?

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 01-19-2002).]

19 January 2002, 14:40

<David>

I just checked my M48. The mag box is 3.215 as compared to my M98 (VZ24) mag box of 3.315. These intermediate Mausers have another limitation in addition to the shorter mag box. The bolt and action is about 1/8 inch shorter and the action screws are 1/8 inch closer together. This makes finding an after market bottom metal impossible and an aftermarket stock very difficult since most are made for the standard M98 actions.

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David Sipe

Politicians and diapers have one thing.in common:
They should both be changed regularly, and for the same reason

19 January 2002, 15:05

wildcat junkie

quote:
Originally posted by David:
I just checked my M48. The mag box is 3.215 as compared to my M98 (VZ24) mag box of 3.315. These intermediate Mausers have another limitation in addition to the shorter mag box. The bolt and action is about 1/8 inch shorter and the action screws are 1/8 inch closer together. This makes finding an after market bottom metal impossible and an aftermarket stock very difficult since most are made for the standard M98 actions.

These actions are 1/4" shorter. They are built to the "Small Ring" length. In all other respects they are "large ring" and all large ring parts (other than the bolt, firing pin, firing pin spring and bottom metal) will work. There are comercial actions in this length, and hinged floorplates are available, albeit hard to find. Besides there's nothing wrong with the issue bottom metal that a little tinkering won't remedy. It should be easy enough to modify a stock inletted for a "Small Ring" M98 to fit. Again they would be dandy for a WSM or 376 Steyr based chambering.

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 01-19-2002).]

19 January 2002, 16:22

<auto>

A good friend of mine necked up the 284 Winchester cartridge to 8mm. The 284 Winchester has the rebayed base, and is thought to give '06 performance from a short length case. I guess it is called"8mm X 284 winchester". I am sure that RCBS makes dies for this wildcat and may even have an "Ackley Improved" version that would be even better. Will the action stand the pressure?

19 January 2002, 16:30

Major Caliber

This action is regarded by some, to be the strongest Mauser action ever made.

[This message has been edited by GSF1200 (edited 01-19-2002).]

19 January 2002, 17:40

denton

Sounds like the 8mm-06 in a Yugo is going to be more trouble than it is worth. I really like the 8mm-284 idea... probably have to trim tha rails a little, but the case is .32" shorter, and that should be plenty. The 8mm-300WSM sounds super, but I wonder about getting it to feed right. That would be a really potent little round that would fit in the required length.

20 January 2002, 05:31

m1carbine

The stats for the yugo action are: 8.500 oal, 7.620 between screws, 6.115 bolt length, mag length 3.232, ring dia. 1.410.

Going on a mag length of 3.232, I would say that unless you don't own a file, you have your desired length.

Also some of these yugos have the safety breech system. I have not seen one of these personaly but what I have heard is that the barrel shank is milled to suround the case all the way to the bolt. almost like a pre 64 m70.

Ray

[This message has been edited by m1carbine (edited 01-19-2002).]

20 January 2002, 05:39

<500 AHR>

Another stupid question. What is wrong with the orginal chambering of 8X57 Mauser?

Todd E

20 January 2002, 06:04

m1carbine

nothing except he wants an 8'06. There reason that 8'06 was made in the first place was to recycle surp rifles. There wasn't any 8x57 avalible except for surplus. Also all american 8x57 is very weak. its loaded to only 25,000 psi if I remember right. Lawyer proof again. Euro ammo is loaded to full pressure. i don't think that the 8'06 would give you much more the 200 fps over the 8x57.
Ray

20 January 2002, 06:36

<500 AHR>

Ray,

The 8-06 won't give you 50 fps if you load that old mauser to the same pressure as the 06. Either of them are good killers.

I completely undrestand the reason behind the 8mm-06. Nowadays though 8X57 Mauser isn't too hard to find either loaded ammo (even European) and brass for.

Todd E

20 January 2002, 06:57

wildcat junkie

Brenneke loads the 8x57js with a 196gr bullet in excess of 2700fps (2740fps I think) Yes you would be hard pressed to improve on this with an 8mm-06, but I think the 8mm-06 becomes valid because some of the M98s in 8x57 have very long throats. I wouldn't have been able to reach the rifling in the one I had unless I loaded 200gr or heavier bullets, hence the decision to rechamber to 8mm-06 Ackley Improved. My smith says there would be no problem feeding with a WSM based cartridge in the VZ500 action (commercial Yugo M98). A short action M70 CRF is awfully close to the "Yugo" actions. As for lengthening, there isn't as much "expansion room" built into the "Intermediates" as there is in the "standards". I think that some of this "expansion room" has already been used as the action is .250" shorter, but the mag well is only about .090" shorter. I have heard of people trying to do this, but it was not really successful. You would be extremely limited with heavier bullets. I had William E. Tibbe do some computer models on an 8mm WSM, and the velocities were about 200fps better than an 8mm-06 if I remember correctly. 3100fps+ with a 180gr bullet.

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

20 January 2002, 07:12

m1carbine

Todd,
I don't know why other then they just want to recamber. If it were me I would neck up a short belted magnum and recamber for that. But to each there own. Some positive results from recambering are probably more psychological then physical.
Ray

20 January 2002, 08:49

<leo>

I don't know that there is such a thing as a .284 win. improved. That case in it's natural state is pretty much already improved with it having sharp shoulders and little body taper. There is an article in one of the latest gun mags that shows the 8x57 can be loaded as hot as any '06. An extra long throat might be a problem. The 8mm-.284 sounds good.

20 January 2002, 09:10

m1carbine

The problem with 8x57 is that if you don't reload then you are going to be stuck with weak loads. The vihtavouri website has loading info for both 8x57 and 30-06 that pushes a 200 grs bullet to 2500 fps. So you have alwas been able to load to that level but it is not comercialy avaiable here in the usa. For a caperison federal loads a 170 grs bullet to 2360 fps loading data list a velocity of mid 2700's, 400 fps faster.
Ray

20 January 2002, 13:23

denton

The responses have been very educational. I thank you all!!

One problem I have is a lack of really good loading info for the 8x57. The good news is that I have a strain gauge system that I can strap on, and work up my own loads. Since so many Mausers were arsenal rebarreled to 30-06, I have to believe that 8mm will stand the same pressure as the '06.

With that in mind, my back of the lunch napkin noodling led me to believe that I might be able to get 2700 fps out of a 225 grain bullet in the 8mm-06... maybe more if I could find one with a 29" barrel, in good shape. Don't know if that is a reasonable expectation. If it is, it is an improvement on both the 8x57 and the 30-06.

My main objection to the 8mm is that at 150 and 170 grains, you have a short fat bullet with mediocre sectional density and ballistic coefficient. It seems that you have to get above 200 grains to hit the "sweet spot" for bullets, and, as near as I can tell, the 8x57 just wasn't designed to get that much lead moving very fast.

So far, I haven't been able to find an 8mm in good enough shape, and at low enough cost, to make the whole thing worthwhile.

Both the .284 and .300 WSM variations are very, very intriguing ideas. The more I think about 8mm-300WSM, the more I think that it offers a serious improvement in performance.....

21 January 2002, 02:42

wildcat junkie

quote:
Originally posted by denton:

My main objection to the 8mm is that at 150 and 170 grains, you have a short fat bullet with mediocre sectional density and ballistic coefficient. It seems that you have to get above 200 grains to hit the "sweet spot" for bullets, and, as near as I can tell, the 8x57 just wasn't designed to get that much lead moving very fast.

denton: the Nosler 8mm 180gr ballistic tip is an excellent performer. It has a Ballistic Coeffiecient of .396. You should be able to get between 2700-2800fps ( in a 23 3/8" barrel) with IMR 4064 in an 8x57. Most loading data is per the SAAMI spec of 39000 CUP This anemic performance level is due to the .318" (7.9mm) J bore rifles that are still kicking around out there. 2700 for a 225 gr bullet is a little much (about 200fps much) for an 8mm-06 unless you do indeed have a 29" barrel. If you are going to rebarrel that Yugo, I would go for something based on the WSM case. My choice would be an 8mm version. That should push a 225gr bullet @ 2800+fps.

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 01-20-2002).]

21 January 2002, 03:10

m1carbine

If you want a 29" barrel then I would get one of the surplus 98/22. They were made by the cechs and I you look you might find one witha resonable barrel. Also the Turk 38's have the long barrels. But they are alot rougher in condition. They were made in turkey.

Ray

21 January 2002, 04:08

denton

The picture that's emerging is that the 8x57 in its native state is a better performer than I had thought, and that you have to make a major change in case capacity to get performance that is enough different to really matter.

So that says either leave it alone, and just shoot it, or make the leap to 8mm-300WSM.

Rechambering is fairly cheap. A new barrel isn't. So if I can pick up an unissued Yugo for $160, and rechamber, I've got a serious firearm with little investment. (Part of the game for me is finding out how much fun I can have for how little money.)

One last question: The 300 WSM based cartridge would require removing steel from the inside of the chamber, and that reduces the bursting strength of the barrel. Will I have to reduce pressure because of that?

BTW, I'm going to be working out of town for the next week...won't be able to respond.

21 January 2002, 05:37

m1carbine

If you want to do as little money as posible then get the 98/22 at about $80 or the turk at $50.
Ray

21 January 2002, 06:19

<David>

Denton

I have one of the Yugos you are talking about using and even though the bolt handle is bent, it still will not clear a low mounted scope, neither will the safety. So expect to spend some $$ on the bolt handle and safety mods. I just finished a project much like what you are thniking about to the WSM cartrige with a VZ24 action, except I rebarreled to a 270 Wby Mag. It shoots and look great.

21 January 2002, 11:12

wildcat junkie

quote:
Originally posted by denton:
The picture that's emerging is that the 8x57 in its native state is a better performer than I had thought, and that you have to make a major change in case capacity to get performance that is enough different to really matter.
So that says either leave it alone, and just shoot it, or make the leap to 8mm-300WSM.
Rechambering is fairly cheap. A new barrel isn't. So if I can pick up an unissued Yugo for $160, and rechamber, I've got a serious firearm with little investment. (Part of the game for me is finding out how much fun I can have for how little money.)
One last question: The 300 WSM based cartridge would require removing steel from the inside of the chamber, and that reduces the bursting strength of the barrel. Will I have to reduce pressure because of that?

Yes the 8x57 is a good performer with "adult" loads! If your barrel is not "long throated" you should be ablle to get excellent accuracy with either 180 Nosler Ballistic Tips or 200 Partitions. They both have a very similar ogive. If your throat is "long" the 200 gr bullets might shoot better. The 180 BT is outstanding on deer. I took 3 with them in an 8mm-06 Imp. this season. Two dropped in thier tracks. One (an extremely LARGE doe) went 50yds in a "death run" after being "heartshot". Exit wounds were the same from 60yds to 225yds, suggesting this bullet works over a large velocity range. The 8mm WSM might require a new barrel as it is much shorter than the 8x57 (about 1/4") the barrel might be able to be set back enough to clean up, but make sure first. The Yugo is a "large ring" action and bursting the barrel should not be an issue, unless the "setback" places the chamber in the first "step". Any "milsurp" will require bolt handle mods and safety mods to clear a scope. Rewelding the bolt handle costs the same as bending (about $35) and a "Bueler" type safety can be modified to clear a low scope mount if you don't try to go too low.

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 01-21-2002).]