Die making?

06 February 2003, 02:58

Voldamort

Die making?

Can the same reamer for chambering barrels be used to cut improved chambers in standard carbide dies? Perhaps the 30-06 to 30-06 improved.

06 February 2003, 03:15

Jay, Idaho

No. Chamber reamers are used to cut soft steel. To cut carbide requires grinding with a grinding wheel that has fine diamond abrasives that do the cutting. Normal hardened steel dies are only hard for a few thousandths thickness and would trash the expensive reamer if an attempt to use it as a cutter were made. You can cut through the hard surface with carbide cutters but then you have a soft surface that would not be good for a sizing die.

06 February 2003, 03:17

Voldamort

Thanks Jay.

06 February 2003, 04:01

<Roundbutt>

I have not seen a carbide die in 30-06.I have only seen carbide dies in streight wall cases. I just neck size improved.

06 February 2003, 04:11

Bill M

quote:
Originally posted by Roundbutt:
I have not seen a carbide die in 30-06.I have only seen carbide dies in streight wall cases. I just neck size improved.

Very true, and most of the them only have a ring of carbide at the base, which is why that only works on straight-walled cases.

Besides the carbide machining issue, the resizing die reamers are cut smaller dimensions than a chambering reamer. If the same reamer was used, it wouldn't be able to make the case "smaller" than the chamber, which is what re-sizing essentially does.

Regards, Bill

[ 02-05-2003, 19:12: Message edited by: Bill M ]

06 February 2003, 04:31

I use standard 243 Dies on my 243 AI. I just make sure to set the die so that the shoulder is not set back.

06 February 2003, 06:38

<JBelk>

JD--

I can see using 243 AI dies for reloading standard 243 Winchesters but no way is a fire-formed AI case going into a standard die. How do you DO that?? [Smile]

06 February 2003, 08:12

Paul H

Perhaps some clarification on the dirrences between chamber dimensions, and die dimensions. A chamber will be at least .001" larger in dia along it's length then the case, but in many cases up to .005" larger in dia, and hence the reamer has those same dimensions.

The sizing die will be at least .001" smaller in dia then the case to allow for springback of the brass. Since the sizing die is smaller then the chamber, you need a sizing reamer to cut the die.

What you can do with a chamber reamer is make a bushing neck sizing die, a shoulder bump die, and a seating die for your rifle.

Carbide is harder then chambering reamers, so trying to cut a carbide blank will only amount to ruining a chamber reamer.

It is possible to bore a sizing die.

06 February 2003, 08:18

Bill M

Good clarification Paul, Thanks!

Bill

07 February 2003, 05:04

Jack: I didn't think it would work either. When I built my 243 AI, I fireformed the brass using a recipe off the internet that also appeared safe from a couple of reloading manuals. I wanted to neck size some for action proving dummies, and I found out I could effectively neck size them with a standard 243 Win RCBS die. Since I'm cheap at heart, I never did buy AI dies.

07 February 2003, 05:20

<John Lewis>

JD, if your 243 Win die works for a 243 AI you've either got a bad die or you don't have a real Ackley. It can't work.

07 February 2003, 17:03

SST

JD,
A fireformed .243AI should measure about .461" at the shoulder. A standard .243 Winchester die reduces case diameter at the shoulder to .454". Something is amiss.

08 February 2003, 09:57

Brent Moffitt

I've done alot of checking on this lately and I've found that .003" smaller in dia. is pretty much the standard amount the die reamer is made the length of the body for minimal FL sizing.

If you run a chamber reamer in your '06 die, you'll need to have it made to work with neck bushings now, and then it will only neck size at that.

Paul,

Can you make a shoulder bump die from the chamber reamer and not have the body at the shoulder get too tight by bumping it back? It would seem the die would still need to be a tad tighter than this on the body to keep it from bulging out?

I would rather do this though than buy another reamer ($140.00) to make a FL die when I'm just going to be neck sizing all the time for a tight neck chamber.

07 February 2003, 22:03

Brent Moffitt

Voldamort,

You might be able to recut a Hornady die if the reamer isn't designed to cut the neck or is smaller ie. 6.5/06 AI or something for a neck sizer. The Hornady dies are softer than all the others I'm told and can be recut without much trouble. I'm pretty sure my smith has done this on occasion.

Might be an avenue for you. Anyone else use Hornady's for this?

[ 02-07-2003, 13:05: Message edited by: Brent Moffitt ]

08 February 2003, 05:36

JL and SST: I just measured fireformed case and sized case. Before: Neck .276, Shoulder .459, Base .470. After: Neck .273, Shoulder .456, Base .470. Specifications for 243 AI according to "Cartridges of the World" Neck: .275, Shoulder .457, and Base .470.

08 February 2003, 06:28

trigger

JD
Is your 243 die a full sizer or a neck sizer?

08 February 2003, 07:42

<John Lewis>

JD - it sounds to me that what you really got was a .243 Ackley die that was marked as standard .243 Win. I've used lots of RCBS dies over the years and you absolutely shoud not be a ble to use a standard die to size a .243 Ackley case. Sounds like you lucked up with a screwup.

08 February 2003, 07:53

Paul H

quote:
Originally posted by Brent Moffitt:
(sic)

Paul,

Can you make a shoulder bump die from the chamber reamer and not have the body at the shoulder get too tight by bumping it back? It would seem the die would still need to be a tad tighter than this on the body to keep it from bulging out?

I would rather do this though than buy another reamer ($140.00) to make a FL die when I'm just going to be neck sizing all the time for a tight neck chamber.

The only experience I have is using oversize dies to work up some wildcat dummies. My feeling is, if the shoulder angle isn't too sharp, you shouldn't have a problem with the shoulder/body junction swelling. I would be concerned about a sharp shoulder though.

The best route to go for one off dies is to make them with a boring bar, definately some precise machining, but beats the heck out of the cost of a $150 die reamer.

08 February 2003, 07:58

<JBelk>

JD and others---

I think the confusion over the 243 "Ackley Imp" is caused by there not being that caliber in existance. Ackley doesn't list it in his books, Nonte doesn't have it, and neither does my favorite, the Ken Howell reference work.

The impression many have is that Ackley "improved" everything by blowing the case out to .005 body taper and a 40 degree shoulder angle....that's not true. He used many different shoulder angles and body tapers and, truth be known, didn't like most of them.

It's very possible somebody had a reamer made that moved the shoulder forward and steepened the shoulder angle and named it 243 AI. As long as the shoulder diameter wasn't increased the new case could be neck sized in a standard die.

I can't imagine *why* anybody would do that, but I've seen a lot that didn't make any ballistic sense that somebody sold somebody on.

09 February 2003, 04:43

<John Lewis>

Jack, You are absolutely right, there are a few Ackley Improved cartridges out there that P.O. Ackley had nothing to do with, but it has never bothered me to call them Ackley's because I always considered it to be a tribute to him. Besides, just because it wasn't in the book doesn't mean he didn't try it.

The dimensions JD gave for the round are for the full Improved version, Ackley style. He's got a messed up die, one way or the other.