Recently, I've had another opportunity to pick up a "used" Sako Forrester .243 that I previously passed on this summer and regretted my inaction.

The rifle appears unfired- the bolt face is clean no rings and the bore is bright one tiny stock scratch... Dealer says it's used however...

My question is, how can I differentiate a Pre Garcia Sako from a less desirable (from the collectors standpoint)Garcia import?

I'm not a collector but I can't understand why this rifle hasn't sold yet... Seems to be a bargain- It might be my new walking varminter...

Any information or insight helpful...

All the Sako's are good sound firearms - if this is a bargain go for it. Does this one have the knurled cocking piece cover? Knurled scope mount flats? and does it specify on the side AIII? If so you have a good, solid working rifle.

Pete

Look for "Bofors Steel" on the barrel. If it's there, you got the good one!

------------------
Phil- Life Member NRA & SCI

SN needs to be below 110,000. The dovetail mounts will be checkered. Under the bbl. it will say nothing if imported by a service man and bought in a Rod and Gun club on base or...it will say Firearms International, Washington, DC.

The pre-Garcia (1972) Sakos were imported by Firearms International. They sometimes, but not always, were stamped on the underside of the barrel just in front of the forend "Firearms International, Washington, D.C.". All Garcias were stamped in the same place, "Garcia Corporation".

Pre-Garcias mostly, but not always, were stamped "Bofors Steel" on the right-hand side of the barrel. No Garcias (or subsequent Stoegers) were so stamped.

The stocks and barrels on pre-Garcias were of a much slenderer contour, and in holding one as compared to the other, this is very noticible in overall weight, and in the fullness of the grip and forearm.

The blueing on the "standard grade" was brighter on the pre-Garcias, but similar on the Deluxe.

The checkering, on the other hand, was sometimes ragged on the pre-Garcias. It seems that quality control on the older models was pretty much up to the individual stock craftsman in this area. Most were excellent, however.

Many of the earlier F.I.'s had a magazine release "blade" inside of, or milled into, the trigger gaurd, while later models, and all Garcias, had a plunger-style release.

All pre's actions (as well as most Garcias) will be numbered "L 579", while any action numbered "A II" is much later.

Serial numbers are a bit tricky, since the three actions, L 61, L 579, and L461 used a different, non-sequential numbering system. An L 61 (long action) must have a serial number in the low thousands to be "pre", while L 579's and L 461's may be up to the 100,000 level or so. (With the long action, identification is simple: pre's have a third safety lug like a '98 Mauser, while Garcias and subsequent have none. The shorter actions never had safety lugs.)

As far as checkering of surface of the mounting dovetails, I've never seen a Sako of any vintage that wasn't, so I don't think this would be of any help.

The above comments are applicable only to the post L 57 and L 46 models. These older Sakos had a round-headed safety mounted on the cocking piece which is the dead-giveaway on them (as well as the detachable magazine on the shorter action). These oldies are also very desirable, but as a shooter, I like the L 579 better.

If you ever have an opportunity to "feel" the differnce in the slimmer pre-Garcia versus the "fatter" and heavier Garcia or Stoeger, you can tell them apart in the dark. That's not to say the Garcias aren't good shooters -- they are excellent.

Hope this helps.

Post 72 Sako's or Garcia's as some call them had slick top dovetails, red stocks, a Phillips head screw in the black pistol grip cap and they had a pin sticking out left side of cocking pc. which kept the bolt guide from being placed behind the left bolt lug and inserting into action. IF this happened then you would jerk the bolt open to eject the round and find you had the bolt in one hand all by itself and the rifle in the other but all by itself and the two were no longer connected.

Harry, once again, I beg to differ. I have owned dozens of pre-1972 (pre-Garcia) Sakos, several Garcia-imported Sakos, a couple of Stoeger imports, and some of the recent models (as well as rifles built on the Sako action by Colt). NO SAKO I HAVE EVER SEEN HAS NOT HAD A CHECKERED SURFACE ON THE SCOPE MOUNTING DOVETAILS. That doesn't mean there's not one out there somewhere, but this was NOT a trait of the pre-versus-post Garcia production. The Browning-Sakos and H & R Sakos had round-top receivers, so this does not apply.

I never actually observed the head of the screw holding the plastic pistol grip cap, but most Garcias (in standard grade) had NO pistol grip cap (the Deluxe had a contrasting rosewood cap), while all (to my knowledge) pre-Garcia standards did. I failed to mention this in my previous post as a key indicator.

As far as "red" stocks, many standard grade Sakos had stocks that tended strongly toward a reddish hue. I would say that the red is more prevalent in Garcias, but can be found in pre's also.

One L 461 pre-Garcia I have is in the 111,000 serial number range, but none of my L 579's are above the 70,000's, so I don't know exactly how high they went. (Incidentally, my 111,000-range L461 has a barrel marked "Bofors Steel" while another L461 in the 70,000 range is not so-marked.)

Your observation about the protruding pin on the left side of the bolt on the Garcias is correct for the L 61's, but I'm not at all sure about the shorter actions. I don't have a Garcia L579 here with me, but I'll check with my hunting partner who has a Garcia .22-250 in his collection about the pin on an L579.

One last indicator: All standard grade pre-Garcias had a front sight (the Deluxe was sightless). SOME standard grade Garcias came without a front sight ("Model 74"). One model labeled "Model 72" actually had a rear open sight mounted on the barrel -- the only one I know of ever on a Sako.

As with most rifle lines, there are undoubtedly hybrid "transition" models which exhibit the traits of both distributors' models, perhaps having a heavier stock but still a lighter barrel, etc.

When Garcia took over distribution from F. I., they felt that the Sako was a bit too "European" with its slender contours. So they immediately "beefed" it up to feel more like American products like Remington and Winchester. They also put more "distance" between the standard and deluxe grades by dulling down the bluing a bit on the standard and using plainer wood than before so that the deluxe was more clearly the nicer piece.

There were just a few calibers that were chambered in pre-Garcias, but not afterward. The ones I'm aware of (and imported to the U. S.) are .222 Magnum, .244 Remington, .264 Winchester, and .300 H & H. Of those, only the .244 was built on the L 579 "medium" action. I didn't include .22 Hornet, since it was only available in the original L46 action, and the rare and illusive 7 x 33 Sako was only marketed in Europe. Later cartridges like the PPC's and 7 STW, etc. are, of course, only seen in Garcia and post-Garcia guns.

As an aside, when Garcia took over importation from F. I., it also got the F.N. Mauser line. Garcia marketed some F.N. Mausers as "Garcias" and sold them at attractive prices. My cousin, who is not particularly gun-informed, bought one of these at the local discount store, and to this day thinks he only has a functional, but el-cheapo deer rifle named for a fishing reel. I haven't been able to talk him out of the gun because he doesn't want to have to go buy another.

As far as shooting performance, the Garcia Sakos are just as good as the older models, but I sure like the feel of the more graciously contoured pre's better. Just my personal preference.

[This message has been edited by Stonecreek (edited 10-26-2001).]

Stonecreek,
What the hell do I know? I only co founded the Sako Collectors Assn in 1982 with Jim Lutes from Whitewater, KS, was the Pres. of the SCA for many years, the editor of the newsletter and spent three weeks in the factory on two different trips.
Oh, did I forget to mention that I owned at any one time 100+- Sakos and was considered to be the largest collector of those rifles in the world?
First thing you learn in collecting guns is to never say "never".
It would seem you do know a great deal about Sako but rest assured there were slick top dovetails.

Well, Harry, I certainly agree with you that you should never say never about any one aspect of Sakos. That's why I'm so puzzled that you insist on Garcia's having uncheckered dovetail flats. Of three Garcia-marked Sakos I have inspected since my last post, ALL had checkered flats. The L 61 R had a serial number in the 500,000 plus range and no safety lug, so it wouldn't seem to be a "left over" from pre-Garcia production.

I also said that there may be uncheckered flats out there, its just that I had never noticed one, and I never pass up an opportunity to look at a Sako (there I go saying "never").

There are certainly some unusual characteristics in individual guns that you run across from time to time. For instance, I once owned an A V with a black synthetic magazine follower -- haven't seen that before or since, but it may have been common in that vintage production as I believe that this was the only A V I ever owned (concentrating mainly on "pre's).

Also, I know of no pattern to the pre-Garcias which are not marked "Bofors", and there are a considerable number of them. Do you have a clue? By the same token, I have never seen a Garcia marked "Bofors", but there may be some floating around. As far as my caliper can tell, the Bofors and non-bofors barrels on pre's are of identical contour.

One other difference which applies to the actions only crosses my mind. It seems that pre-Garcia actions, when offered by themselves, came blued. I think that Garcia's only came in the white. What about it?

Maybe I'm just extraordinarily lucky, and hopelessly dumb about it, to have a number of checkered-flat Garcia's. How about it, are they worth big bucks to you professional collectors?

Anyway, I enjoy bantering about Sakos, and hope that you aren't offended that my experience differs with yours in some areas. I readily admit that I lack your self-credentialed authority (and have never been much closer to Finland than, perhaps, Baltimore).

And oh, yes, what about the short-lived Dickson-Howa from Japan in the mid to late '60's? It was a dead ringer for the Sako, right down to the checkered dovetail flats. I never owned one, but my impression is that they were produced directly from the Sako pattern and possibly with Sako blueprints and dimensions. Does anyone know anything about this rare bird? Was it produced under license or was it pirated? How about it, Harry?

stonecreek : I am not a Sako collector but I am a Sako enthusaist. (It takes less money to be an enthusaist.) It is my understanding that the Sako Model 72 was produced without checkered dovetails. This economy model was only produced between 1972 and 1974. I am afraid that this is hearsay evidence only. I have personally never seen this model. Regards. rollinghills.

Never heard of the Dickson-Howa but you'd be surprised at how close the current long action Howa is to the Sako L61R.I've had both rifles apart at the same time. The Howa stock will fit the Sako with some bedding around the bottom metal and the tang.The way the firing pin assembly is installed in the bolt is the same.The extractor is similiar but not the same.I'd say that Howa definetly copied a LOT from the older Sakos.I recently acquired a Sako AII in 22-250 and the fit and finish,bluing and quality feel makes me wish I'd kept my L61R in 270.Gotta find another Sako in a big game caliber.

The only Sakos that I like are the L series with the Mauser cocking pieces, the A series is a far away second, but will do...The rest are sloppy in MHO, and in no way are they even near the above two, other than perhaps looks from afar, to some folks....

I dearly love the little L46 and L461 actions for the 6x45, 222 and 223's....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Rollinghills: You may very well be right about that Model 72. It was the first "new" model introduced by Garcia and was intended to be a "notch" below the standard grade.

If you'll remember (but then again, why should you?), it was in 1972 that John Connally was Secretary of Treasury and devalued U.S. currency twice in a row by 10% in just a few weeks in order to reverse the balance of payments deficit and make American goods more price-competetive with imported goods. (I recall this because I was farming cotton at the time. Japan was the big importer of U.S. cotton, and this action made cotton dirt-cheap to the Japanese. As a result, cotton prices climed to post-war high in 1973; but by 1974 they were back in the sewer.)

Anyway, this action made European guns very steep in relative price. As a reaction, Garcia tried to produce a cheaper gun that would still sell when priced against Rugers, Winchesters, and Remingtons. The short-lived Model 72 was their answer. This is also the model which, I think, may have come with an open rear sight. Maybe someone out there can confirm or negate this. Like you, I never examined a Model 72, but can readily believe that its scope flats were smooth. As far as the standard grades and deluxes under Garcia, they continued, to the best of my knowledge, to have checkered flats. I know the Model 74, which more-or-less replaced the Model 72, did have checkered flats, because I owned one of them and sold it to a hunting companion who still has it.

Rembo: I wasn't aware the the current Howa was so similar to the Sako. I assume that the Dickson-Howa was produced by the same firm, so maybe that's why. I'd love to hear from someone who has owned a Dickson-Howa.

Harry: Don't go away mad. Help shed some light on these issues for us.

You have brought up so many questions that it would take a very long time to answer them.
The Garcia Mod 72 had a red stock, skip line checkering, black pg cap with Phillips head screw and smooth..yep smooth dovetails. They also had the pin on left side of cocking pc. and so did the post 223 I owned.
Actions were. L46, L461, L469 in small.
In med you had L57 and 579.
In large you had the FN Mausers and the L 61.
You had the lever action Finnwolf in 243 and 308 and nobody has ever seen the 22 250 on the cover of Gun Digest.
In 22's there were P46, 54, 72, 74 and 76.
Calibers were 22LR, 22Mag, Bee, Hornet, 222, 222 Mag. 223, 22/250, 243. 244, 308, 300 H&H, 300 Win, 264, 270, 25/06, 30/06, 338 Win Mag & 375 H&H. There were 7x33, 25.20 22 Verling, and several 8 x somethings as I recall. I had a 8 x 60 J or S or..
There were bbl actions in 458 Win Mag.
All this is pre 1972 stuff.
I don't know squat about the A series.
The serial number range I gave is the correct range. The large actions considered to be per 1972 did have the 3 rd lug in front of the bolt handle even if they said Garcia under the bbl.
The only reason you would not have the importer mark under the bbl is if it was bought overseas by a serviceman etc and brought into the USA that way.
There was a batch of Bofors steel at the factory in the mid 70's but I know of no rifle maked Borfor's after 72 I think. I would have to look back in records to find the exact year.
IF you do not have a large number of Sako in your collection then there will be many things you will not notice or know.
There were strange things like Deluxe model Mannlicher stocked rifles and in heavy bbls. yet as an example. They were ordered for some stange reason by Marshall Fields store in Chicago and in two calibers only. I owned one of these in my collection and have the history behind them.
There were different style front sight hoods, clips, floorplate releases, rear sights on bbls. were common on guns brought home from overseas but special order in US.
There were different style rear sights with different markings on them.
The list goes on.
Different acid etched designs on the floorplates of the deluxe actions.

Thanks for the info, Harry.

You didn't say so exactly, but I infer from your comments that the Model 72 was the only action made with smooth dovetail flats (at least on a regular production model). Is this correct? And most other Garcia-Sakos would have had checkered surfaces? If so, this seems to match my observations.

We haven't really talked about the Browning-Sakos. One thing I have never been sure of -- are their barrels Sako-made or the same as the FN Brownings? I know that they have the "step" contours, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're not made by Sako. I've owned a few of them, and found them to be delightful pieces. I think the last of them were shipped in 1974 or 1975.

You had Browning Sako, Marlin Sako, Anschutz Sako, Weatherby Sako, Sears and Monkey Ward Sakos, H&R Sakos.
The Dickson Howa was a direct knock off of the Sako Deluxe. They got in trouble with Sako due to the direct knock off.
The Model 72 is the only action I know of with smooth dovetails but there were lots of them in the various calibers so you will run across one before long.
The M72 also had another great American feature...white line spacers!!! All it needed was mud flaps and curb feelers.

Don't forget the O'brien Sakos. They were cute little sub-calibers on an L461, alot like the H & R 317. My guess is that Colt, behind Browning, probably marketed the greatest number "non-Sako" Sakos, at least here in the U. S., but this is only based on the frequency with which I run across them.

You really stumped me with the Sears and Wards Sakos. I recall they both marketed some FN's and Winchesters (before they fell of the edge of the Earth and went with Mossberg), but I was totally clueless that they ever marketed a Sako!

Yep....the O'Briens are great little petite rifles. Nearly all the ones I've seen, or had, used actions that were F.I. imported, and barrelled by P.O. Ackley and the A&M Rifle Co. Similar to the H&R Model 317, which was made after Vern sold out to H&R in 1968, but slimmer and in different cartridges.

Neat rifles....huh "Harry" (Hello there M.R.)

17's-R-US!!
Kevin Gullette

Hey Kevin...how are you doing?
Long time no hear or see.
Still have all those neat H&R's.
I am down to the same four as I have always had.
Never did get the 222 to finish out the collection.
Come see me sometime.
I need to make sure I have your proper # and address for my files. I think you moved on me or something.
MR

Thank you for all the good information.

The guy came down a little bit and I jumped on it this time. For roughly the price of a Remington BDL, I got a Sako. My new Walking Varminter...

The gun is a Garcia import Forester .243 SN #1158XX. The stock scratch was some type of crayon and rubbed right off... Stock is reddish wood with modest figure and decent checkering. It is "bigger" and "thicker" feeling than some other rifles I've been eyeing lately like the Kimber... not quite as sleek and svelte as the Pre Garcias as mentioned... Has a Pachmayr white line vented recoil pad which disgusts me- an easy fix. Bluing is 99% beside one small blemish where it was leaning against the rack in the safe- also, the receiver has a slight purplish cast to it in certain light. Plunger type magazine release. Dovetails are checkered. The rifle is unfired and has not seen a scope- I don't even think the bolt has broken in yet...

Ideally, I'd like to store the original stock in the safe and procure the Classic Style Sako stock and bed the rifle into it. An excellent picture of this stock is on gunbroker.com, featured auction #2341097 under Sako. Can anyone speculate on where to get one of these?

And second, which 1" scope rings would you recommend?

Scope rings:

The original Sako rings are good, but the rear ring is positioned too far to the rear to allow some scopes, particularly variables with adjustment rings, to be positioned far enough forward for some shooters. Extension rings were available, but are difficult to find.

I really don't have any experience with the currently produced Sako-made rings because they are so much more expensive than other equally good rings that there is no incentive to buy them. Besides, as a traditionalist, I distrust the plastic inserts.

Redfield used to make a slip-on adapter for their standard rings and these are very satisfactory, but use one height lower ring than you otherwise would since they "stand up" higher above the dovetails than most Redfield bases.

Millett is a Johnny-come-lately with a very neat little dovetail adapter which uses their standard cross-lock ring, but with a slightly modified "frog" for hooking the dovetail. They are adjustable for windage, which is handy, but not fore-and-aft for scope mounting. However, the three rifles I have them mounted on do just fine. Use the low rings for most applictions. Some people don't like Millett cross-locks, while others swear by them. If you like them, then these will do well on your Sako.

Leupold's ringmounts are probably the best deal on the market. They are clean and neat and provide some fore-and-aft placement options to accomodate various scopes. I have them on several guns ranging from .222 through .375 H & H, and although they look a bit on the delicate side, they have held up flawlessly. There is no adjustment for windage, but I haven't found need of any, either. The low ring clears (but just barely) a 33 mm bell, the medium ring clears a 40mm OA just fine (on sporter barrels, of course). They can be had for right around $50 from several mail suppliers.

Tasco made some clunky contraptions, and Weaver made a perfectly horrible slide on adapter of which I have had several and promptly tossed them.

There may be a couple of other mounts out there, like Warne for instance, but I don't have experience with them so cannot advise.

Congratulations on your Sako. I'll bet it shoots well.