Neck down a 9.3x62 to an 8mm

13 January 2003, 10:49

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by KurtC:
Oddly enough, the 8x64 Brenneke is based on the 9.3x62.

Not. I doubt it ever was.
See the CIP dimensional data.

And for the latest article on the 8 x 64, see:

Hans J. Heigel: Wiedergeboren. Die Patrone 8 x 64 S erobert sich wieder ihre Nische,
in: Deutsches Waffen-Journal 11/2002, pp. 80-82, 7 ills., 1 loading table

Best regards,
Carcano

[ 01-13-2003, 01:52: Message edited by: carcano91 ]

13 January 2003, 11:33

<J Brown>

Mauserkid

The 9.3x62 and 30-06 share the same case so the wildcat you are asking about is pretty close to the 8mm-06 which has been around for years.

Jason

13 January 2003, 12:38

Mauserkid

Looking at the dimensions of the 9.3x62 would indicate a very efficient cartridge. The neck length is very similar to the 8x57. This length uses the most out of the Mauser magazine as well. It is way better than the 8mm-06. The 8mm-06 is of very little improvement over the 8x57, unless you Ackley it, at least in my opinion.

I believe that a 8mm version would be a real bang for the most part.

Later...

13 January 2003, 12:41

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by J Brown:
The 9.3x62 and 30-06 share the same case

As I have informed you, they don't :-)

Regards,
Carcano

13 January 2003, 12:46

Mauserkid

From left to right: 303, 305 rigby, 9mm mauser, 9.3 x 62 mauser, .375 (straight)
Hope this picture shows up, I found it on a search.

Later...

[ 01-13-2003, 03:47: Message edited by: Mauserkid ]

13 January 2003, 13:07

<MRMD>

quote:
Originally posted by J Brown:
Mauserkid

The 9.3x62 and 30-06 share the same case so the wildcat you are asking about is pretty close to the 8mm-06 which has been around for years.

Jason

Actually, the 30-06 and 9.3x62 are differnt cases (slightly). The 9.3x62 has a slightly larger case head diameter. Nevertheless, the dimensions are close enough that 9.3x62 brass can usually be made from 30-06.

13 January 2003, 13:08

Mauserkid

These are the 8mm.... Left to right...
8x57 Mauser
8x06
8x06 Ackley Improved
8x65 Skip

The 8x65 Skip, is what I think a 9.3x62 would look like necked down. The longer case would be required to achieve the same over all dimensions as the 62, and still have a neck to load...

Thanks....

13 January 2003, 13:13

carcano91

From which basis case has the 8 x 65 Skip been derived ?

Thanks,
Carcano

13 January 2003, 13:27

Mauserkid

quote:
From which basis case has the 8 x 65 Skip been derived ?

In all honesty, some time ago, I made a 8x57 bigger... I had not seen a 9.3x62 till yesterday in my Guns&Ammo page 80. At the time, I was un aware that I was slow to the punch. Basically, all I need to do is get it necked down..

13 January 2003, 22:20

<J Brown>

Mauserkid

I believe you will find difference in case capacity between the 8mmx06 and your 8mmx62 to be very small. Look at the water capacity of their parent cartridges (30-06=68grs.) (9.3x62=74.9grs.). Keep in mind the above figures include the case neck itself so the 30-06 will gain capacity when necked up to 8mm and the 9.3x62 will loose capacity when necked downto 8mm.

If you have any doubt that the 8x62 and 8-06 would be very similar just look at the capacity of the 06 case necked up to 358 to form a case known as the 35 Whelen, (35 Whelen=72.6grs).

I am not about to crunch the numbers to figure out the exact difference in capacity between the 06 and the 62 case necked to necked to 8mm but it is safe to say the difference is less than 2%. The shoulder diameter of the 9.3x62(0.447") is only 0.006" larger than the shoulder diameter of 30-06(0.441"). The 9.3x62 is only 0.023" longer to the base of the neck than the 30-06.

Carcano and MRMD
The fact cases for the 9.3x62 can be formed from the 30-06 and the 30-06 can be formed from the 9.3x62 should be proof enough that they do in fact share the same case. Keep in mind the 0.003" difference in base and rim diameter is about the thickness of a piece of printer paper.

Jason

13 January 2003, 23:53

Flip

Why would somebody want to do that while we have a lott of 8mm rounds wich does all one can ask

14 January 2003, 02:39

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by J Brown:
Mauserkid
I believe you will find difference in case capacity between the 8mmx06 and your 8mmx62 to be very small.

Yes. And anyhow, it would be the 8 x 64 S to which he would compare his project.

quote:
The fact cases for the 9.3x62 can be formed from the 30-06 and the 30-06 can be formed from the 9.3x62 should be proof enough that they do in fact share the same case. Keep in mind the 0.003" difference in base and rim diameter is about the thickness of a piece of printer paper.

Look, you're wrong and proven wrong. Just admit it [Smile]

.
As to dimensional specs and tolerances, one "can" also form 7,7x58 Arisaka from .30-06 bras. It even works in a number of cases (pun intended). It is still not recommended. Same here. I certainly do not want an undersized case bottom in a full-power 9,3 x 62 load.

Carcano

[ 01-13-2003, 17:44: Message edited by: carcano91 ]

14 January 2003, 06:24

<J Brown>

quote:
It is still not recommended. Same here. I certainly do not want an undersized case bottom in a full-power 9,3 x 62 load.

According to the Barnes reloading manual the 9.3x62 can be formed from the 30-06. I doubt they would recomend this if there was any danger in doing so. If there was any danger Barnes would be leaving themselves open for lawsuits.

Can you tell me where it is published that this practice is "not recomended"?

Jason

14 January 2003, 06:46

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by J Brown:
According to the Barnes reloading manual the 9.3x62 can be formed from the 30-06. I doubt they would recomend this if there was any danger in doing so.

We are not naive, are we ? [Big Grin]

quote:
If there was any danger Barnes would be leaving themselves open for lawsuits.

Indeed, the Barnes reloading manual is as open for lawsuits as Iraq to an invasion. That's why the many reported errors immediately have lead to a long correction leaf, and corresponding website info.

quote:
Can you tell me where it is published that this practice is "not recommended"?

Yes. You are welcome.

a) Read the CIP data.

b) Exempli gratia RWS-DNAG handbook, 8th ed., page 350 (in translation: "One shall only use original cases, because the 9,3 in wider in P-1 cross section than e.g. 7x64 or .30-06.")

c)Much louder and RRRRINGINGGGGG in your ears [Wink]

: Vihtavuori Reloading Manual 3rd ed., page 246, last sentence expressis verbis.

Case settled ?

Carcano

14 January 2003, 07:01

<leo>

Yes, 9.3x62 cases are regularly made from '06 cases. I would think the 9.3x62 case was originally based on an altered '06 case and was an endeaver to give the German colonists in africa a suitable all-around medium cartridge for all game encountered.

14 January 2003, 07:39

Mauserkid

quote:
Yes, 9.3x62 cases are regularly made from '06 cases. I would think the 9.3x62 case was originally based on an altered '06 case and was an endeaver to give the German colonists in africa a suitable all-around medium cartridge for all game encountered.

Leo,

actually, at least in my cartridges of the world, the 9.3x62 is one year older than the 30-06.

OK<,,,, Yes you can make the 9.3x62 from 06 brass.. First you must create a false shoulder to maintain headspace. Then after fire forming, you now can final trim, load, etc...

ANY WAYS...
Later all....

14 January 2003, 08:14

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes, 9.3x62 cases are regularly made from '06 cases.

That has indeed been correct in your neck of the woods in the past. A substitute. In the same past, same place, people have also formed the rare 7,62x39 from common 6,5x54MS cases. Well...

quote:
I would think the 9.3x62 case was originally based on an altered '06 case

No. The .30-03 (and successively the .30-06) are themselves an altered German M/88 case. Otto Bock however used a case design of his own - in order to distinguish himself from the established 9x63 - and gave it a slightly rebated M/88 rim, so that normal M 98 standard bolt faces could still chamber it without a need for alteration.

quote:
and was an endeavour to give the German colonists in Africa a suitable all-around medium cartridge for all game encountered.

Yes. That is indeed the commonly accepted story. Maybe somebody can dig in contemporary German hunting magazines around 1905, to find out more.

Regards,
Carcano

14 January 2003, 10:54

<leo>

Hokie dokie!

14 January 2003, 17:05

<J Brown>

Carcano91

The Speer manual and Cartridges of the World along with the Barnes manual both state 9.3x62 cases can be formed from the 30-06.

I guess you an I can agree "cases for the 9.3x62 are extreamly similar to the 30-06 and can be formed from the 30-06 but this practice is advised against by some authorities."

Due to the fact that you hail from the homeland of the 9.3x62 I will let you have the last word on this one.

Jason
PS Because Mauserkid is looking for an 8mm that:

quote:
uses the most out of the Mauser magazine as well.

I think he should take a look at the 8x68s. What do you think?

[ 01-14-2003, 08:07: Message edited by: J Brown ]

14 January 2003, 19:35

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by J Brown:
The Speer manual and Cartridges of the World along with the Barnes manual both state 9.3x62 cases can be formed from the 30-06.

a) It is true that they do state it.

b) It is also true that it is not recommendable and advised against, by those who know better (for two independent reasons, both having been brought to your consideration).

c) It is foremost true that a lot of crap is found in books, and that knowledge is required to separate the chaff from the wheat. We call this process "learning", and learning something new inadventantly is indeed one of the risks of this board. I feel this very risk has hit you; but hey, that's a Good Thing (tm) [Smile]

quote:
PS Because Mauserkid is looking for an 8mm that: uses the most out of the Mauser magazine as well
I think he should take a look at the 8x68s. What do you think?

The 8 x 68 is a much-hailed cartridge,and fairly universal in application. Those who use it are almost always enthusiastic about it. It is also very accurate. If you want a powerful 8mm instead of using a .338, it is certainly a decent choice.

Carcano

15 January 2003, 05:48

dan belisle

Or if you're on this side of the pond, try the 8mm PMM (poor mans' magnum). An 338 Win Mag case necked down to 8mm. Just for fun. - Dan

15 January 2003, 05:51

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by dan belisle:
Or if you're on this side of the pond, try the 8mm PMM (poor mans' magnum). An 338 Win Mag case necked down to 8mm. Just for fun. - Dan

Sounds like alottafun, Dan [Wink]

. But isn't it much of work to lathe turn the case bottom, as to dispense with the silly belt ?
*ducks and covers*

Regards,
Carcano (8x59 Breda rulez !)

15 January 2003, 06:20

Daniel M

Hola Carcano

I believe the 8 PMM have the belt , it's a 7 mm Rem mag or a 338 WM reduced / opened to 8 mm .

Saludos Cordiales

Daniel

15 January 2003, 16:22

<J Brown>

Carcano

With all the books and manuals that I can find that list the 9.3x62 stating that it can be formed from the 30-06 I am lucky to have you here to correct things.

I would think I would have heard of someone blowing up a 9.3x62 using 30-06 brass by now. I guess all the guys who blow up their 9.3 using 06 brass are too embarrassed to admit it. They must even be too embarrassed to file a lawsuit against the reloading companies who recommend this foolish practice.

Jason

15 January 2003, 19:36

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by Daniel M:
Hola Carcano
I believe the 8 PMM have the belt , it's a 7 mm Rem mag or a 338 WM reduced / opened to 8 mm .

I can understand the idea. At first, one would be tempted to assume that it was just one more project "let's make a worse 8 mm", but at a closer look, there is more to it, as I have to admit.

1. It serves to gain more case capacity while retaining an easy-handling overall length, suitable for a standard M 98 action. However - the disadvantage follows on the spot - the bolt face must be opened up. The 8x59 RB Breda uses a standard size case head.

2. One needs no 8x64 factory brass (cheap from Sellier & Bellot, but not *very* cheap), but can use commonly found cases. In the past, that was one very frequent concern and motive for necking up and down existing rounds. In return, you get the extra work of necking up or down.

3. Some people just think they need a belt to underline their gracefully protuding belly [Big Grin]

. Same goes for cartridges...

4. And lastly, you have a conversation piece [Smile]

.

Mejores saludos,
Carcano

[ 01-15-2003, 10:38: Message edited by: carcano91 ]

16 January 2003, 03:51

dan belisle

The 8mm PMM does indeed have a belt. The rounds greatest attribute (over here) is that brass is very common and cheap. It pretty much equals the 8 X 68S ballistically. As for the belt and belly concept, well, guilty, what can I say? - Dan

17 January 2003, 04:05

wildcat junkie

I've been working for the past three days on shelves for my reloading/wife's sewing room. [Embarrassed]

A couple more days ought to do it.

As soon as I can get everything organized, (when I can see the top of the loading bench again) I'm going to open up the magazine to 3.5", remove the rear sight, taper in the sight flat and ship that M98K barreled action to Dennis Olsen to be rechambered to 8X68S.

If the Hirtenberger brass is any good at all, this chambering won't be expensive to reload @ $.45 a case.

Santa is all payed up and I've managed to squirrel away several $100 for gun work [Big Grin]

Won't be long now [Wink]