Just what is your legal sitution re building guns?

18 September 2003, 02:32

I was wondering what you need to do in the States when building a rifle off an action.

Here, in theory it would be possible to buy an action, barrel and stock to assemble.
...Just as long as you finished product is no different to a factory produced and cataloged rifle.

Example; you buy a Rem 700 action, after that you can only mount a barrel of the exact same dimensions, chambered in the same caliblers that the factory offers.
So you can only duplicate, ableit with better parts, an already existing factory rifle.

To add to the pains, we are are limited to the firearms that have been "cataloged" if they have not been cataloged by our government, they don't exist.

Once you have put the parts together, the weapon must to be tested, or proofed - something that should not present any great problems...in theory.

In practice, no-one here can build or modify a rifle.

What do you guys have to do?
Just buy the parts and assemble? No worries?

18 September 2003, 02:57

Dutch

Anyone can modify, take apart, re-assemble in whatever configuration, any rifle action.

You cannot turn a rifle into a handgun, and you have to watch out above 50 caliber in centerfire ("destructive devices"). You also have to have a "class III" license to go full-auto, but semi-auto is fine.

The only part on a rifle that is regulated are the action and the silencer. So, if you want to, you can take a 338Lapua rifle, and rebarrel it to 14Flea. Or whatever. HTH, Dutch.

18 September 2003, 06:13

browningguy

Dutch is correct, i just want to point out that if you are doing this and selling them the BATF now seems to believe that makes you a manufacturer. So if, for instance you take a mauser action and send it to a 'smith he can do whatever you want to it, no questions. If you have a 'smith build you a custom and he supplies the action it appears that BATF requires him to have a manufacturers licsense.

Some of the real gunsmiths onthe board may be able to clarify it more, but that's my understanding from the gunsmith I use for custom work.

18 September 2003, 07:39

Customstox

Browningguy,
I can build a rifle from an action that I have in inventory for you with just my FFL, but when I sell it to you I have to charge excise tax on the value of the completed firearm. I do not need a manufacturer's license. If you supply the action I do not charge for the excise tax. There have been attempts to get this changed with custom gunmakers and make them exempt from the excise tax. I do not know at what stage a person needs a manufacturers license.

18 September 2003, 08:03

dan belisle

Pretty much works the same way here in the Great White North. If you have an action, you can build whatever you want. There is no destructive devices law in Canada, although some calibers are prohibited (25 ACP and 32 ACP)in handguns. As far as rifle goes, the gov't here worries more about the action type (bullpup for example) then it does what caliber you want it in. Some firearms are banned by name (.50 cal Grizzly, for example), but the way the law reads, if they don't actually name the gun specifically or a certain class of firearms (say, M14's) then do what you want. You'll still have to register it though. There is no proofing standards that I am aware of, perhaps for Gov't contracts, but certainly not for private citizens. Building a custom rifle here is not considered manufacturing unless you do in fact manufacture the action. FWIW - Dan

18 September 2003, 08:31

John Frazer

quote:
Originally posted by Customstox:
Browningguy,
I can build a rifle from an action that I have in inventory for you with just my FFL, but when I sell it to you I have to charge excise tax on the value of the completed firearm. I do not need a manufacturer's license. If you supply the action I do not charge for the excise tax. There have been attempts to get this changed with custom gunmakers and make them exempt from the excise tax. I do not know at what stage a person needs a manufacturers license.

The excise tax is screwy because the tax regulations treat it almost as a "value added" tax.

You need a manufacturer's license when you are "engaged in the business" of manufacturing firearms as a "regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit."

Note that the term "firearm" means receivers, which makes the whole excise tax issue even screwier.

18 September 2003, 08:38

jason baney

FYI--to own a machine gun, or suppressor, or short barrel gun you dont need a "class III" license, you just need to fill out proper paperwork from a class III dealer (incl. fingerprints, photo and a local CLEO, or sheriff has to sign for you) its not that big of deal, but the waiting sucks, as well as the 200$ transfer fee.

im in my 4th month of waiting for a suppressor now [Roll Eyes]

18 September 2003, 08:48

<G.Malmborg>

quote:
Originally posted by Dutch:
Anyone can modify, take apart, re-assemble in whatever configuration, any rifle action.

I would just like to add the words "for themselves" to Dutch's post. If you intend to perform this service for anyone else, you will need an FFL.

Malm

18 September 2003, 08:53

eshell

quote:
Originally posted by jason baney:
. . . im in my 4th month of waiting for a suppressor now
JB

Keep your chin up. [Smile]

Mine just went through and ATF only had it in their office for 66 days. First one for me, BTW. My local CLEO took longer than the feds.

18 September 2003, 09:41

Dutch

Malm is absolutely correct, of course.

Once you start doing it for others, you need an FFL or a manufacturers license. There is an ill-defined area with respect to "modifying" occasionally, but in general, if you keep it overnight, or charge for services rendered, you are in business, and having a license will keep your life much more pleasant. FWIW, Dutch.

18 September 2003, 10:50

browningguy

Thanks Chic and all for the additional info. I think the excise tax is the part that the gunsmith I was using had me confused on. In any event, next time I'm supplying the action to save the $200.

By the way, I for one appreciate all you real gunsmiths taking time on the boards to help educate the rest of us.

18 September 2003, 15:51

Orion 1

Sounds like the rules in Italy SUCK.

18 September 2003, 16:16

Wstrnhuntr

So what about the guy who modifies it for himself, decides hes not happy with the way it shoots and then places it up for sale? Would the law consider him in need of an FFL?

18 September 2003, 16:24

Customstox

Wstrnhuntr,
You can modify a rifle for yourself without an FFL. You can sell it at a later date without one also. From what I understand, "technically", you are supposed to collect the excise tax and send it in. AND, the next time that happens will be the first in recorded history. [Smile]

[ 09-18-2003, 07:25: Message edited by: Customstox ]

18 September 2003, 23:18

John Frazer

quote:
Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
So what about the guy who modifies it for himself, decides hes not happy with the way it shoots and then places it up for sale? Would the law consider him in need of an FFL?

NO -- it all revolves around the "engaged in the business" definition which requires a "regular course of business" (i.e. doing it more than once) and a profit motive.