Flyers

25 December 2017, 10:18

NONAGONAGIN

Flyers

Ahhhh...the SD...say ANYTHING Against the SD and out comes the really nasty stuff...

SD is usually 1/2 the ES and the ES is just the difference between the highest velo and the lowest velo and EVERYONE has their own interpretation of it and ALL OF THAT statistical stuff ain't worth spit unless you have a relatively large amount of data. That doesn't mean dozens of 10 round group unless you have a way to determine WHY a bullet went where it did. Simplistically saying it either in or out of SD and it's the velocity or the shooter doesn't do much in the way of determining the WHY the velocity was out of 'spec'.

SD is a measure of dispersion from the mean and the SD of a 5 shot group can be 200 fs from a mean of 500 fs...What does that tell you? Even a 100 shot group IF you used 5 cases and reloaded them 20 times may or may not give you much information UNLESS you did some scientific cogitating on just WHAT you wanted the SD information to tell you, and set up the experiment to test those parameters.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...WHO CARES.

There is a neat little formula that will give you a number for ANY group size but again it doesn't mean squat unless your group size is large enough to smooth out all the little bell curves...find it on Wiki.

I do agree that a flyer is part of THAT specific group and NEEDS to be identified as to the cause and there are millions of words written by many to explain HOW they go about getting rid of the pesky bugs.

I learned to shoot way back in the days BEFORE chrono's and all this very fancy and neat stuff I dearly love because it makes the job of detection MUCH easier.

We used lots of "tricks" to figure out how to eliminate the "Flies in the pies"...But...Hey, the internet has eliminated all the work ethic that teaches...many problem areas have already been stated.

There are lots of ways to eliminate bugs if YOU want to figure them out...again, this has been well addressed on AR and several other forums, you just have to search it out.

LUCK

26 December 2017, 00:31

Instructor

No question bench rest shooting and Long Range NRA shooting different ball games. Local self proclaimed "expert" bench shooter quite upset when he learned at an upcoming match not only would the high score be determined by the tightest group, but the score of that group. All the holes up in the top right corner tightly grouped gives no score value and told him the numbers on the target face are there for a reason. Over the years have developed a system to help me read the wind and as you mentioned the ranges of 100-300 are not a problem for wind or at least bare minimum versus 400-1000yds.

26 December 2017, 08:09

INTJ

quote:
Originally posted by Instructor:
No question bench rest shooting and Long Range NRA shooting different ball games. Local self proclaimed "expert" bench shooter quite upset when he learned at an upcoming match not only would the high score be determined by the tightest group, but the score of that group. All the holes up in the top right corner tightly grouped gives no score value and told him the numbers on the target face are there for a reason. Over the years have developed a system to help me read the wind and as you mentioned the ranges of 100-300 are not a problem for wind or at least bare minimum versus 400-1000yds.

I think where the two disciplines meet is in load development. Get get the rifle as stable as possible in the best wind conditions to find the load, then shoot each rifle as best fits that discipline. In 1k BR we shot for both group and score. The X-Ring was 3” and 10 ring was 7”. My best score was 50-3X, which equaled the world record at that time. Since then the record was set to 50-5X. My best 5-shot group was 3.5”, my best agg was 4.71” and I shot five screamer groups (4” or better) one year. None of that is much of a big deal anymore.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/n...brsa-1000yd-records/

27 December 2017, 00:03

Instructor

Well done, those scores are outstanding. Targets I am accustomed to have the X ring being some 10"/1moa and 10 ring near double that, but in Palma only iron sights permitted and must be 308. I would agree that load development is a common goal for either discipline.

31 December 2017, 16:52

Raul Urrestarazu

quote:
Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
Weight sorting after nose uniforming and ogive measuring work best for me along with the other BR tuning tricks system and cases. Ogives can be off by several thou...usually 2-5 bullets per box and weights up to 15 gr. I don't measure bullet OAL's anymore, just uniformly trim noses to some arbitrary OAL, usually a few thou shorter than the shortest measured bullet...the new tools make it MUCH easier than in the old days.

Try it first before you laugh. Weight sort, nose trim, measure ogives and get the bullets as uniform as you can in separate piles and fire a group...THEN...take a few with mixed longer/shorter ogives and fire them....if your rifle and you are up to it you will see the variation in group size.

If you want to really see what variation is ogive measure a full box of bullets...NOT CUSTOM or CNC bullets...they are usually exceedingly uniform in all dimensions....use available factory brands. I've measured 3 different ogive measurements in one box of "Match" bullets...normally there are only one or two and depending on when/where the bullets were boxed during the bullet making run I've gotten only one sometimes and 10-11 at other times. These bullets come at a point where something in the building components has changed and the quality control has gone out of spec.

AS long as I shoot the bullets by ogive measurement groups the dispersion isn't anything significant...I get bugholes for ALL bullet groups.

Bullet weights can be variable due to differences in the metal composition or tiny voids which can set up an instability that causes the bullet to yaw.

Not many except target shooters care to go through this much troubles and this works even in the largest calibers, but who wants to go through all that pain to gain a bit of accuracy when 1 minute of animal is all that is needed.

Primers are a big source of variation in accuracy and group size. For all my rifles that have been tuned for max accuracy I only use BR type primers and whatever brand shows the highest potential...PER RIFLE and caliber...BR primers USUALLY give the highest accuracy, but NOT always What brand works best is rifle dependent...DON'T ask me why. A bad primer can cause a flier just as well as any of the other things.

One major problem with trying to understand fliers is once the round is fired ALL the components are destroyed/changed in some way and you can't dissect a hole ion the paper. It could have been the primer, the case, the bullet, the powder amount, the shooter or a bug got in the way...it also can be the barrel vibration node just slightly off or the bag settled at the wrong time...or the Devil was just messing with you...hard to diagnose.

A case can be the problem but because any imperfections in the case walls is difficult to diagnose unless you mark the case as to position and shoot it in that position every time. If you keep getting a flier hitting rear there same point every time, you might just eliminate that case for one group to see if you get a hit at the same point...if not you have you culprit.

I could buy a very expensive, fancy-shmancy double rifle for the cost of components and time I've burned up to find just 10 cases that shot into one hole, consistently. Things have changed for the better in today's world...not as hard to find that consistent "bughole" accuracy with today's components, rifles and reloading tools...plus all the information on the net.

LUCK

Thanks for your comments
I use Lapua brass, Lapua scenar bullets and Vithavuori powders
My equipment is Forester bench rest dies ,bushing adn full rezise dies , Sinclair concetricity tool , RCBS charge master 1500 dispenser , and RCBS universal case prep.
I unfiormize all neck cases with a Sinclair tool as well primer holes.
conclussion that I arrive , is that flyers occur by two main reasons; primers and ogive , as NONAGONAGIN said.
I not agree that flyers are part of THAT group.
I also thin that neck tensión is one factor that afect that flyer.
I couldn¨ttake them away till now.
will try ogive measures and another lot of primers , and let you know.

01 January 2018, 07:52

INTJ

I promise you, if you shoot in competition, ALL record shots are considered in determining your group or score. You don’t get a “do over” just because one shot departs excessively from the rest.

During load development, unless you have a rifle/scope problem or you made a mistake when pulling the trigger, flyers are just telling you the true extreme size of your groups and you need to work on your load some more. I have found this to be true for everything from .223s to .458 cal, in light hunting guns, long range hunting rifles, 1000 yd BR competition, iron sighted service rifles, you name it.

Now I am assuming you have the rifle properly built and bedded, scope properly mounted, brass and bullets properly prepped, a proper rest, and proper shooting technique. If any of those things aren’t right, random flyers are indeed possible. I have been sorting brass and bullets for a long time. It’s not difficult to get those things sorted out in terms of load development, but the true group size of a load requires repeat consistency. A load really isn’t a sure thing until you shoot several groups. Then you use the worst group to define how well that load shoots.

At least that how it works for me......