Is a 357 even close to enough

23 June 2008, 02:11

458Win

I have advocated carrying the 357 with either hard cast or jacketed 180-200 gr bullets for twenty-five years. So does Joe Nava - who teaches concealed carry courses in Fairbanks.

The reason is that NO HANDGUN WILL STOP AN ENRAGED BEAR UNLESS THE CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM IS HIT. And a handgun you are comfortable with and can recover from recoil quickly - so that another shot can be delivered if needed - works best.

I'm sure there will be plenty of argument here from those who think that more power is better - it is only if you can hit them in the same place - and from experience I can tell you that accurately placing a shot on a charging bear with any gun - much less a handgun - with your body pumped full of adrenalin is very difficult.
that is why I prefer a sidearm I can shoot rapidly and accurately.

I can also attest that a 180 gr, flat nosed jacketed bullet, from a 4" 357 will shoot through the head of a ten foot bear.

23 June 2008, 02:37

bucko

The last time I was in Kamloops I met and visited with a gentleman that used to own an outfitting biz in interior BC.
He told ma a story about how he shot and killed an attacking Grizz with a 38.
The hunter split the scene and left him standing with only the pistol " I was somewhat confused as to why he did not have a rifle with him,, I know that when I was in that country, or Alaska I would not step on the porch to piss without a 338,, I know I am a puss about those big assed bears but I have an aversion to being turned into bear shit"
Anyway he saw the bear charging him and he said that he waited until it was close enough so that he would have a chance to hit it in the brain at the right angle for the bulelt to penetrate.
When about 20 feet away he started pumping bullets into the top of its head and it dropped at his feet.
he said that he had to sit down and smoke a cigarette...
I know that the story is true, i also know the fellow that bought his outfitting biz and it is verifiable.
Plus I assure you the man is no bullshitter.

I remember thinking that I would have rather had something a little larger as I am sure so would he..
But yet I also realized that the main reason that he was able to stop that bear was because of the ease with which he could get off rapid and aimed rounds.

23 June 2008, 03:14

GrayDuck

That info definitely relates to my situation. I am not a handgun guy so I figure I would be more comfortable with a 357. I have shot them on several occasions and didn't mind them at all.

I have been looking at the 4" Tarus Trackers. I really like the fact that the 357 cylinder holds 7 rounds over the 44 mag only holding 5 rounds.

quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
I have advocated carrying the 357 with either hard cast or jacketed 180-200 gr bullets for twenty-five years. So does Joe Nava - who teaches concealed carry courses in Fairbanks.

The reason is that NO HANDGUN WILL STOP AN ENRAGED BEAR UNLESS THE CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM IS HIT. And a handgun you are comfortable with and can recover from recoil quickly - so that another shot can be delivered if needed - works best.

I'm sure there will be plenty of argument here from those who think that more power is better - it is only if you can hit them in the same place - and from experience I can tell you that accurately placing a shot on a charging bear with any gun - much less a handgun - with your body pumped full of adrenalin is very difficult.
that is why I prefer a sidearm I can shoot rapidly and accurately.

I can also attest that a 180 gr, flat nosed jacketed bullet, from a 4" 357 will shoot through the head of a ten foot bear.

23 June 2008, 03:54

grizz007

I like Phil's advice. I have been carrying of late my G20 with 200grn. Hardcast with 10grn of 800X@1300fps-just easier to carry than my 629-1 with 325 hardcast@1050fps. With me the 2nd and 3rd shots are quick unlike the recoil of the magnum although accurate in its own right.

Last resort right? My rifle is in my hand(s) most of the time or very close by.

23 June 2008, 05:58

Cold Zero

quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:

I can also attest that a 180 gr, flat nosed jacketed bullet, from a 4" 357 will shoot through the head of a ten foot bear.

That is good to know. I too beleive that a lethal/accurate hit is better than a non lethal or wounding hit from a gun/caliber combination that the shooter can not handle, but read in a gun/hunting magazine is the latest greatest big bear medicine.

I carry a 4" Colt Python .357 with 200 gr. bullets.

23 June 2008, 12:05

gumboot458

Where can I get good 200 gr .357 bullets .....When my wife had a 357 I loaded 180 gr Hornady XTPs in it because that was all I could find .. I thot about getting some 225 gr X bullets and sawing the nose off to make a 200 gr bullet ...Never did tho ,.,

I wish the 45 Colt or 454 Casul was .458 Dia .

23 June 2008, 12:28

grizz007

gummy, I have not looked for the .357 cal. hardcast at Beartooth Bullets but certainly Marshall has quite an inventory-tis where I buy my handgun bullets.

23 June 2008, 20:08

tsturm

quote:
Originally posted by GrayDuck:
When it comes to a backup handgun for any bear up to big browns is a 357 even close to enough? Is it best to go with the 44 mag and not look back? I'm not a handgun guy so I don't think I want anything bigger than a 44.

What ever you have handy when the time comes is the Absolute Best Cal.

23 June 2008, 21:03

gumboot458

quote:
Originally posted by grizz007:
gummy, I have not looked for the .357 cal. hardcast at Beartooth Bullets but certainly Marshall has quite an inventory-tis where I buy my handgun bullets.

........

Who,s Marshall ??

23 June 2008, 21:43

gumboot458

This thread does bring up a good point tho , ,.
Since the 45 and 50 S&W revolvers produce similar ballistics to the 45/70 , and the 45/70 will knock a bear down and turn a charge , . Where is the cut off point ..
A friend here was charged by an old bear last fall here and he killed it with his 500 S&W 4" . The first shot turned the bear 2nd shot was in the ribs as he was kindof muzzle flash blinded . 3rd shot as the bear was going away possibly busted the hips , he,s not sure as he didn,t do a necropsy it was a real old stinky bear .. It had a 26" skull and squared around 8'6" as I recall .

Tho it may not have been a totally pissed off bear , my friend said that the bear looked at him ,put its head down and charged from around 10 yards .. The first bullet went in the neck , thru the shoulder and exited, it blew its [ elbow ] off . That is the round that turned the bear ...

Would a smaller cartridge have worked as well ???????????????????????????????????????????????

24 June 2008, 00:01

DPhillips

quote:
Originally posted by gumboot458:
quote:
Originally posted by grizz007:
gummy, I have not looked for the .357 cal. hardcast at Beartooth Bullets but certainly Marshall has quite an inventory-tis where I buy my handgun bullets.
........

Who,s Marshall ??

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/

24 June 2008, 03:15

Paul H

Shoot the biggest gun you shoot well, and shoot it well.

I ocasionally pack a 357 blackhawk loaded with 200 gr hardcast. It's a nice light gun, and in a strong gun like the blackhawk it is an entirely different load than the 125 gr hp.

24 June 2008, 11:48

gumboot458

....Thanks for the links ..I need to get some 240 or 250 gr .429 bullets for a 44 Special also ...

24 June 2008, 16:54

DMB

quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
I have advocated carrying the 357 with either hard cast or jacketed 180-200 gr bullets for twenty-five years. So does Joe Nava - who teaches concealed carry courses in Fairbanks.

The reason is that NO HANDGUN WILL STOP AN ENRAGED BEAR UNLESS THE CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM IS HIT. And a handgun you are comfortable with and can recover from recoil quickly - so that another shot can be delivered if needed - works best.

I'm sure there will be plenty of argument here from those who think that more power is better - it is only if you can hit them in the same place - and from experience I can tell you that accurately placing a shot on a charging bear with any gun - much less a handgun - with your body pumped full of adrenalin is very difficult.
that is why I prefer a sidearm I can shoot rapidly and accurately.

I can also attest that a 180 gr, flat nosed jacketed bullet, from a 4" 357 will shoot through the head of a ten foot bear.

Phil,

Good posting.
My son and I just had this conversation a few days ago, with me on the side of the 357, specifically in a Colt Python, and he on the side of the 44 magnum. I held, and hold, that me being able to shoot the 357 well, while not doing so with the 44, has the 357 be THE route to go. The 44 Mag is just too much for me to shoot well.

Don

24 June 2008, 20:51

Mikelravy

I wonder how many people can shoot a revolver well enough to make a killing shot on a bear in a self defense situation. I'd sure hate to have to count on me be able to do it.

24 June 2008, 21:39

grizz007

quote:
I wonder how many people can shoot a revolver well enough to make a killing shot on a bear in a self defense situation. I'd sure hate to have to count on me be able to do it.

not too many for sure.

24 June 2008, 21:42

458Win

Bill Jorden, the Border Patrolman who was involved in a number of gunfights and wrote the book "No Second Place Winner" also insisted that the ability to recover from recoil quickly and take another shot was more important in real, life threatening, situations than a more powerful pistol that took longer to fire.

24 June 2008, 22:15

Atkinson

I'll take a 45 Long Colt..I think the 357 is the best caliber for a one shot stopper on people but not on animals..

24 June 2008, 23:10

GrayDuck

Thanks for the thoughts and opinions. I have also been kicking around the idea of splitting the difference and going with a 41 mag.

I'll have to make a decision in the next week or so because I want to be familiar with whatever my choice is before my trip in late July.

24 June 2008, 23:15

grizz007

owned a Smith .41mag many yrs. ago-wish now I had not gotten rid of it-oh well. that is a fine caliber that is easily overlooked.

25 June 2008, 01:35

a.tinkerer

My two cents

My black bear guide (northern california) carries a 44 magnum as his primary 'backup' for his clients.
He's guided the very northernmost part of the state for over thirty years, guiding archers, black powder hunters, handgun hunters, and riflemen.

He's seen all sorts of 'what can go wrong' on a black bear hunt, one of the stories that stuck the most with me was of a handgun hunter who took his 537 maximum TC single shot out for a bear hunt.
This guy got his bear, knocked it down with one shot, right between the eyes.
A short moment later, the bear was back on it's feet pissed off and charging the hunter and guide. The guide was able to present his 44 and shoot the bear (in the neck), dropping it dead, and gave it another in the heart to be sure.

As they caped out the bear, they found the hunter's bullet pressed onto the bear's skull, part of the bullet extruded into the crack that it'd created on impact.

That was a few years ago, and this guide has strongly dissuaded his clients from using anything under 44mag since.

A bear's skull would appear to be perfectly designed to deflect a bullet. The forehead is very thick and slanted back at a rakish angle.
If you're going to attempt a headshot on a bear, and think you're up to the task, go for the snout. The nasal passages are large and porous, and lead a clear path to the brain.
The neck is an easier route to a disabling CNS hit, still I wouldn't budget my life or the lives of my family on a 38 caliber pistol to stop a bear.
In a life threatening situation (gunfight, animal attack) you're not going to notice the recoil, you won't hear the shot.
Strongly consider packing a 44mag in bear country and practice with reduced loads or 44special ammunition. 44spl out of a 44mag is not at all punishing or uncomfortable to shoot.

again, just my two cents

-Tinker

25 June 2008, 01:44

Atkinson

Your option of the 41 mag. is a good one..I really like the 41 mag. as the recoil is substanially less and it kills very well for a pistol...
What comes to mind with me is what Jack O'Conner always said, if you can't kill the bear with your rifle, your in trouble with a pistol.
I have enough confidence in myself and my rifle that I have never carried a pistol while hunting DG..so far so good, and thats a heck of a long time and lots of DG hunting.

25 June 2008, 03:13

Cold Zero

quote:
Originally posted by gumboot458:
Where can I get good 200 gr .357 bullets .

Gumboot, sorry for the slow reply. Here is the link:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.p...1_27&products_id=152

DPhilips suggestion is good also, as his input is always rock solid.

25 June 2008, 03:31

Paul H

A 357 mag is like a 2wd truck. In capable hands it'll get you awefully far, but there is little room for error.

Then again I see alot more 4wd trucks in the ditch than 2wd. Equipment doesn't make up for lack of skill

25 June 2008, 06:00

GrayDuck

quote:
Originally posted by Paul H:
A 357 mag is like a 2wd truck. In capable hands it'll get you awefully far, but there is little room for error.

Then again I see alot more 4wd trucks in the ditch than 2wd. Equipment doesn't make up for lack of skill

Well said

25 June 2008, 10:23

mike7mm08

quote:
Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
My two cents

My black bear guide (northern california) carries a 44 magnum as his primary 'backup' for his clients.
He's guided the very northernmost part of the state for over thirty years, guiding archers, black powder hunters, handgun hunters, and riflemen.

He's seen all sorts of 'what can go wrong' on a black bear hunt, one of the stories that stuck the most with me was of a handgun hunter who took his 537 maximum TC single shot out for a bear hunt.
This guy got his bear, knocked it down with one shot, right between the eyes.
A short moment later, the bear was back on it's feet pissed off and charging the hunter and guide. The guide was able to present his 44 and shoot the bear (in the neck), dropping it dead, and gave it another in the heart to be sure.

As they caped out the bear, they found the hunter's bullet pressed onto the bear's skull, part of the bullet extruded into the crack that it'd created on impact.

That was a few years ago, and this guide has strongly dissuaded his clients from using anything under 44 mag since.

-Tinker

This is a pretty easy one to figure out. We don't have all the facts but I thick it is easy to fill in the blanks. 357 maximum pushing a pistol bullet at higher than intended pistol velocities. I will bet he was useing a jacketed bullet. A heavy for caliber hardcast bullet put in the same spot equals dead bear without question. Head shots on a bear you need penetration not expansion. That said I would never use a 357 anything to hunt bears. But I do carry a 357 loaded with 180 grain hardcast whenever I am in the woods. I only have to worry about black bears and wolves and the mountain lions that don't exist according to our DNR. I can shot this pistol more accurately than any other I own and recoil is nearly nonexistent. So the bullet is going to go were it needs to go. Like hunting it is more important to match the bullet to the game than the cartridge. Useing a jacketed bullet for bear defense is like useing a varmint bullet on elk.

26 June 2008, 17:15

GSSP

quote:
I wish the 45 Colt or 454 Casul was .458 Dia .

Hey Gum, just use the new math our kids are being taught; works every time

30 June 2008, 07:09

Antlers

quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
I can also attest that a 180 gr, flat nosed jacketed bullet, from a 4" 357 will shoot through the head of a ten foot bear.

Was this a factory load, Phil?

30 June 2008, 18:41

chuck375

I shoot a 1911 Springfield V16 built for the .45 Super (230g bullet at 1150 fps). It has a 6" barrel with 8 ports on each side. I shoot about 1000 rounds a year through it (handloads), so I'm decent with it. It's my self defense gun for concealed carry and backwoods hunting/fishing/hiking trips. We only have scrawny little mountain lions and black bears here in Colorado though. Unfortunately they don't make them anymore.

Chuck

01 July 2008, 13:09

D99

I would carry a 10mm Glock. Glock is the only gun we tried when I worked for the North Slope Borough Police that didn't freeze up int he winter time. I had really high hopes for the 1911 of some sort, but even with no lubrication it would gunk up and freeze.

Though the odds of seeing a brown or blackie when it's -10 are pretty slim. The ursus maritimus on the other hand likes that weather.

02 July 2008, 18:31

chuck375

The problem is if you live, camp or fish in bear country, even if you bring your rifle with you (which I always did) it can be just too far away. Example, your flyfishing in the stream, your rifle's on the bank 50 feet away, you hear a loud snort way too close behind you, turn and see a nice grizzly standing up in the water 20 feet away midstream behind you. And yes you have two trout in your creel ...

Chuck

02 July 2008, 19:05

bucko

That would truly suck..
And is the very reason why I learned how to cast and reel with a 12 gauge pump with slugs over my shoulder on a sling.
Not much trouble really, when I could look up and see bears bigger than a freeking horse.

02 July 2008, 22:59

vapodog

You guys do as you see fit.....while I absolutely agree that a hand gun you can shoot well is better than one that you can't.......my personal experience with a .357 Revolver is darn poor as a hunting weapon.....horribly underpowered for such things as large bears.....I'd far rather have Bucko's (strapped to my shoulder) 12 ga anyday!

The .357 Magnum is a toy in comparison.

02 July 2008, 23:09

GrayDuck

I'm sure most people would more comfortable with a shotgun when the moment of truth arrives. However, I am looking for something smaller to take on backpacking and canoeing trips. Not to say someone couldn't take a shotgun on a canoe trip I would still want something strapped to me at all times.

I settled on a 4" Redhawk in 45 Colt. It is supposed to be here today or tomorrow. No doubt I will have spend time with it to get comfortable with it but hopefully over time I can become proficient with it.

03 July 2008, 01:31

bucko

GREAT CHOICE,, 250 to 300 grain hard cast bullets a warm load that is easily recoverable and you are in good shape.
I personally would have a good smith do a polish job on the double action,, and then practice with it until you are hitting pop bottle sized targets in rapid fire at 20 to 25 yards.
If your loads are too hot for you to do that then reduce them until they fit where you are at mentally.

03 July 2008, 04:20

chuck375

That bear story was truth not fiction, but only a small 7' mountain grizzly along the South Fork of the Flathead in the Bob Marshall Wilderness area about 3 days in. I bought myself a 45 shortly thereafter, upgraded to the 45 Super about 6 years ago. I know they're real light for bears, but they beat hell out of a stick or a bear bell and I can shoot it pretty well.

Regards,
Chuck

03 July 2008, 05:06

bucko

Now dammit Chuck you can't leave us like that,, how did you get out of that little hairy situation?

03 July 2008, 10:49

chuck375

I put my fly rod down real slowly, wasn't wearing waders thank God, just shorts and sneakers. I reached in my creel for a fish to throw at him and started talking to him, prepared to throw the fish and swim the rapids right below me, swear on a bible. He snorted and scampered away, he must've thought I was a black bear until I started talking, they don't see well and I was downwind of him.

He came back that night, I layed under a nylon leanto with a fire all night with a mini maglite taped to my 270s barrel. I hiked out of the best fishing spot I have ever been in the next morning and he crossed my tracks twice hiking out. Funny thing was the next day two hikers with walking sticks and "bear bells" were hiking the other way towards the bear. I warned them but they kept on going. Nothing happened to them, sometimes ignorance is it's own defense.

I had fallen off of a 3 story roof 9 months earlier and had just gotten out of a back brace so decided to walk the the Bob Marshall from Hungry Horse Lake to Seely Lake by myself to make sure I was gonna be Ok. It was a wonderful two weeks, with a little excitement here and there. Those were the only folks I saw after the second day until I was almost out.

This was the summer of 1979, back then there were 25 grizzly liscences a year drawn and you better not shoot one without a liscence unless you had a lot of bite marks on you before you shot. So he would've had to charge me for me to shoot him. I couldn't afford the fine or the lawyers back then unless I had no choice.

Chuck

04 July 2008, 06:47

p dog shooter

chuck375 I did 4 or 5 trips into the Bob in the same area great country. We have seen only one grizz a couple of blacks and some real big grizz tracks.

I have carried every thing from a 9mm to 44 mag now I carry a Ti 41 mag with hard cast.

The frist trip we made we were the only one armed the next trip very body was they had a couple of maulings one in the Bob one in Glaicer. Changed every bodys mined about being armed.

One can have some great fishing back there its very nice country.