Scopes in carry ons? TSA is so helpful.....not.

21 January 2011, 04:44

This is the third response I've received from the TSA on the topic and I know just as much now as I did originally. You'll have to read this in reverse, that is from the bottom up to be in the correct time sequence........( I've deleted my name for security purposes and I've put my emails to the TSA in bold)

quote:
Thank you for your e-mail.

The Transportation Security Administration's current security screening procedures require all carry-on luggage and accessible property be screened before passengers take them onboard an aircraft. Regardless of whether an item is on the prohibited or permitted items list, the Transportation Security Officers (TSO's) have discretion to prohibit an individual from carrying an item through the screening checkpoint or onboard an aircraft if the item poses a security threat.

Therefore, TSA security screening personnel make the final decision on whether to permit items into the sterile area of the airport.

Please visit our website at www.tsa.gov for additional information about TSA. We continue to add new information and encourage you to check the website frequently for updated information.

We hope this information is helpful.

TSA Contact Center

--- Original Message ---
From: <sixtlghorn@aol.com>
Received: 1/13/11 12:10:27 PM EST
To: "TSA Contact Center" <TSA-ContactCenter@dhs.gov>
Subject: Re: TSA Contact Us: All Other Inquiries

Dear TSA:

I can read, but I'm not sure whoever is answering this email can. There is no information about my question on the TSA site nor in the attached pdf file. Can anyone in your agency answer a relatively simple question? Thanks Charles A. XXXXXXXX

-----Original Message-----
From: TSA-ContactCenter <TSA-ContactCenter@dhs.gov>
To: sixtlghorn <sixtlghorn@aol.com>
Sent: Wed, Jan 12, 2011 2:44 pm
Subject: Re: TSA Contact Us: All Other Inquiries <<#593460-745931#>>

Thank you for your e-mail.

We are committed to both excellent security and customer service. TSA has published guidelines to help passengers through airport security. The attached guidelines include a list of permitted items as well as an expanded list of items prohibited from aircraft cabins. The prohibited and permitted items chart is not intended to be all-inclusive and is updated as necessary. To ensure everyone's security, the screener may determine that an item not on this chart is prohibited. TSA reviews these lists periodically and changes are announced and posted as necessary.

We encourage you to visit our website at www.tsa.gov for additional information about TSA. All travelers, and particularly those who travel infrequently, are encouraged to visit the section on travel tips before their trip. However, we also encourage frequent flyers to review the guidelines periodically. The website has information about prohibited and permitted items, the screening process and procedures, and guidance for special considerations, that may assist in preparing for air travel. You can find these tips and more at www.tsa.gov under the Travelers & Consumer section..

If a prohibited item is discovered at the checkpoint, you will be given the opportunity to either remove the item from the checkpoint or put it in the TSA disposal bin. Removing the item from the checkpoint includes, but is not limited to:

· leaving it with a friend
· placing the item in your checked baggage
· mailing it to yourself
· returning it to your car

There are no provisions for returning banned items when you choose to leave them at the security checkpoint.

We work very hard to establish consistency in the screening process. As we inspect security screening operations at airports and receive feedback from the traveling public, we address inconsistencies and ensure corrective actions are taken, when necessary.

Please visit our website at www.tsa.gov for additional information about TSA. We continue to add new information and encourage you to check the website frequently for updated information.

Please accept our appreciation for taking the time to share your thoughts and concerns with us. Your help and support are important contributions to ensuring the safety and security of the Nation's aviation system.

TSA Contact Center

--- Original Message ---
From: <sixtlghorn@aol.com>
Received: 1/6/11 12:41:22 PM EST
To: "TSA Contact Center" <TSA-ContactCenter@dhs.gov>
Subject: Re: TSA Contact Us: All Other Inquiries

TSA Contact Center:

Thank you for your response. It had absolutely nothing to do with my question. Could you answer my question of whether it is permissible to carry a telescope designed to fit on your legally checked firearm in your carry on baggage? Thanks Charles A. XXXXXXXX

-----Original Message-----
From: TSA-ContactCenter <TSA-ContactCenter@dhs.gov>
To: sixtlghorn <sixtlghorn@aol.com>
Sent: Wed, Jan 5, 2011 2:07 pm
Subject: Re: TSA Contact Us: All Other Inquiries <<#593460-745931#>>

Thank you for your email message concerning the checked baggage screening process and how it affects passengers carrying firearms in checked baggage.

On flights that originate in the U.S. passengers can transport a firearm in accordance with 49 CFR §1540.111 under the following conditions:

• the firearm must be unloaded;
• it must be in checked, not carry-on, baggage;
• it must be in a locked hard-sided container; and
• it must be declared to the airline.

If these conditions are met, the airline will place a declaration tag inside the checked baggage containing the firearm. This notice alerts Transportation Security Officers (TSOs) to the presence of the firearm if they have to open the bag to inspect it.

The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is required by law to electronically screen all checked baggage that goes aboard a commercial passenger flight. If electronic screening cannot verify that a bag and its contents are safe to bring onboard the flight, TSOs will inspect the bag by hand. TSA, therefore, encourages (but does not require) passengers to keep their checked bags unlocked to facilitate the process and reduce the need to break locks.

TSA recommends that you place the locked hard-sided container with the firearm inside a suitcase or other bag before you check it with your airline. This will allow you to leave your suitcase unlocked but also to comply with the requirement that the firearm be in a locked container.

You can use a hard-sided locked suitcase as the sole container for your firearm. However, this can lead to one of the two following complications if your bag needs to be inspected by hand:

• If the TSOs can determine from the screening equipment that the bag contains a firearm, they will not open it. They will instead attempt to locate you and obtain the key or combination so that they can inspect the bag. If they cannot locate you, the bag will not be allowed onboard the aircraft.

• If the TSOs do not see that the bag contains a firearm before they open it, they may force open the lock and proceed to inspect the bag. Once the lock is forced open, the bag cannot be allowed on an aircraft until it is relocked. TSA will attempt to locate you and make suitable arrangements.

These potential inconveniences can be avoided by following TSA’s recommendation that you pack your firearm by itself in a separate, hard-sided, locked container and pack the container inside your suitcase. If TSOs need to open your bag to inspect it, they will be able to do so with out breaking a lock on the bag.

Once the TSOs open the bag, they will see the declaration in your suitcase and will not open the locked container encasing the firearm. They will proceed to search the bag, close it, and (presuming the bag is free of prohibited items) will be able to allow it onboard your flight.

We encourage you to visit our website at www.tsa.gov for additional information about TSA. We continue to add new information and encourage you to check the website frequently for updated information.

TSA Contact Center

--- Original Message ---
From: <sixtlghorn@aol.com>
Received: 12/30/10 9:07:37 AM EST
To: "TSA Contact Center" <TSA-ContactCenter@dhs.gov>
Subject: TSA Contact Us: All Other Inquiries

THIS GENERATED EMAIL HAS BEEN SENT FROM http://www.tsa.gov/contact/index.shtm
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Remote Client IP: 184.53.177.93
Date Time: 12/28/2010 11:05:27 AM
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Name: Charles A. XXXXXXX
Email: sixtlghorn@aol.com
Brief Description of Inquiry: Gun telescopes(scopes) permitted in carry on?
Comments: Are rifle or pistol scopes (unattached obviously) permitted in carry on bags? This question has come up often in relation to travel overseas, especially to Africa. Thanks Charlie XXXXXXX

------ TCC Control Number: ------
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21 January 2011, 05:51

Peter

I suspect that they have been told NOT to interpret the rules for passengers and just to quote the rules posted on the website. Having said that the following is disturbing as it seems to give complete authority to the screener:
"Regardless of whether an item is on the prohibited or permitted items list, the Transportation Security Officers (TSO's) have discretion to prohibit an individual from carrying an item through the screening checkpoint or onboard an aircraft if the item poses a security threat."
"Therefore, TSA security screening personnel make the final decision on whether to permit items into the sterile area of the airport."
Peter.

21 January 2011, 06:07

LionHunter

The real problem is foreign countries. They seem most often to deny scopes in carry-on. I always leave mine on my rifles, but have had hunting partners have to run back to the "gun room" to put their scopes back in their rifle cases after security deemed their scopes to be prohibited. Fortunately their gun cases had not been moved to the plane! RSA is great for this.

As for TSA, life becomes simpler when you accept that anyone associated with them is a complete idiot who was unable to get a real job. Make that employee an anonymous internet responder and you have created a person who is allowed to perform at the level of a bag full of hammers.

What I hope you will do is forward the email series to the airport TSA manager, Janet Napolitano and your federal elected officials. It's your tax dollars at work.

21 January 2011, 06:15

Peter

gato, further down the list of threads is one titled "Scopes and money". The consensus seems to be no scopes in carry on as they are considered gun parts, but read for yourself. Whether this is due to TSA or a foreign country I don't know.
Peter.

21 January 2011, 08:02

Gatogordo

I've read that thread and IMO the consensus is wrong which is why I initiated this series of emails......like it did any good. Scopes are obviously NOT gun parts.

21 January 2011, 09:48

jdollar

how exactly are you supposed to find a suitcase large enough to hold a hardsided gun case( per the first email response)?

21 January 2011, 11:17

LionHunter

quote:
Originally posted by jdollar:
how exactly are you supposed to find a suitcase large enough to hold a hardsided gun case( per the first email response)?

Lots of take-down hardside gun cases made to fit in the bottom of bags, and also handguns. But remember you're asking about a TSA statement, so must consider the source.

21 January 2011, 18:29

butchloc

quote:
Posted 21 January 2011 04:51 Hide Post
I suspect that they have been told NOT to interpret the rules for passengers and just to quote the rules posted on the website

i suspect that they are more like black booted thugs without a functional brain

21 January 2011, 20:33

Larry Sellers

This type of confussion, double talk and leave it to the agent on duty by TSA is in my thoughts the defining reason to NOT attempt to take a rifle scope in your carry on. Plus as some have said, foreign Countries have their own rules as well. Leave it on the rifle, if an extra scope is the question, pad it well and put it in the "checked' guncase as well. With a Tuff Pak guncase this is a real easy thing to do. I would suspect even most TSA folks know what a "rifle" scope is and looks like. Thus the connection with it being a "gun part" ie. "rifle" scope is pretty easy for them to imagine.

I see no real reason to put a scope in a carry on anyway. If your rifle/scope is lost an extra scope in your carry on doesn't help much. If the scope is broken in shipment while attached to your rifle, then odds are the extra one you padded and secured in the guncase will be OK. Just my thoughts, but it seems to me it's easier and wiser just to leave it out of the carry on instead of tying to change all the Government regs to make it OK.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

21 January 2011, 22:06

jorge

Don't do it. These TSA retards are idiots and to them a scope is a "firearm component." Just to give you another idea of the mental acumen of these morons, my wife once had to remove the NRA Silver Bullet Key ring and throw it away because the TSA goon AND the supervisor said it was "part of a gun." Not worht the hassle. jorge

22 January 2011, 18:59

Flags

I just flew from Pensacola FL to Norfolk VA with a 4x scope in my carry on and it didnt even raise an eyebrow. The bag went through the xray machine and nobody said a thing to me.

So it may very well come down to what the IDIOT in charge behind the line thinks at any given time.

22 January 2011, 21:53

Mike Brooks

Perhaps a better way to phrase the question would be," Is there any optical equipment that is prohibitated from the carry on baggage?"

Do Not mention guns or firearms.

23 January 2011, 04:38

lavaca

If you have a good quality rifle case, the scope is probably safer there. I use an Americase and put an extra scope per rifle in there. Wrap it in bubble-wrap. Haven't had a problem. No need in giving the TSA baboons an opportunity to mess with you.

23 January 2011, 06:23

akpls

I carried 2 scopes in a Pelican case as carry-on all the way from Anchorage, AK to Windhoek via Salt Lake, Atlanta, NYC and Joburg. They went right through all the xray machines and no one even gave them a second look.

23 January 2011, 07:38

tim416

I read this topic a few days ago and was coming through the airport on my way home this morning. I had a little time to kill in the airport so I went to the TSA office to submit this question to them. The agent handed me a brochure which stated that firearms and gun parts ammuntion etc. Must be in checked baggage. The TSA agent agreed with me that a scope on it's own did not pose any threat but it's only use is to be mounted on a firearm. Due to this it will be considered a gun part and not allowed in carry on.
The brochure has no reference number on it and is simply titled "Prepare for Takeoff"
"Permitted and Prohibited Items".
The brochure also points out that I can put brass knuckles in checked baggage

23 January 2011, 08:50

crbutler

To me the point of this is that the TSA has just admitted that it doesn't matter what the item is, the TSA guy screening the items gets to make the call right there at that point.

Even if the scope is felt to be a non firearm optical instrument nationally, the individual can say what he wants, and you are SOL.

I cannot see them changing this, as this policy protects the TSA from becoming to blame for violating its own policy, which bureaucrats find to be a mortal sin.

The TSA agents have been calling a scope a firearm part for almost 10 years now, albeit inconsistently. If you want to argue with the guy at the scanner, be my guest, but I will continue to insure the scope, and put it in the gun case and hope for the best. Besides, my extra scope is absolutely useless without my rifle, so I guess if they both don't show, I haven't lost much.

23 January 2011, 20:49

Collins

I'm not a lawyer nor want to be one. BUT, one of the most basic ways in the US to declare a law or regulation unconstitutional is to prove that it is "Arbitrary and Capricious". Leaving the decision to a front line screener without specific instructions is certainly not specific enough. You'd need a lawyer to fight it. But the way the law reads is that anything (ANYTHING) can be declared a "Gun Part" and confiscated by the agent.

23 January 2011, 21:30

Peter

quote:
(ANYTHING) can be declared a "Gun Part" and confiscated by the agent.

NO, it just has to be declared a "threat to security".
Peter.

02 February 2011, 09:13

Rhys

I just took both of my scopes and wrapped each of them and put the bundles into there own containers that I made from the heaviest wall PVC pipe and caps that I could find. These then went with the rifle in the TuffPak.

02 February 2011, 13:38

nickh

FYI, I FLEW UNITED FROM RENO LAST SATURDAY WITH 2 ZEISS 3.5-10 . ASKED THE TSA IF THEY WERE OK FOR CARRY ON AND THEY SAID NO PROBLEM! GO FIGURE, IT IS UPTO THE OFFICERS ON DUTY AT THE TIME!!

03 February 2011, 07:41

Larry Sellers

nickh - Just curious but what would have done with them if he said "no go"? Leave them with TSA, toss them in the trash can, or try and get back to the desk and check them and possibly miss your flight?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:
Originally posted by nickh:
FYI, I FLEW UNITED FROM RENO LAST SATURDAY WITH 2 ZEISS 3.5-10 . ASKED THE TSA IF THEY WERE OK FOR CARRY ON AND THEY SAID NO PROBLEM! GO FIGURE, IT IS UPTO THE OFFICERS ON DUTY AT THE TIME!!

03 February 2011, 08:18

elk88101

Had only 4 problems with TSA (3) of them this year.
1. Anchorage, Alaska I carry my Blaser R-93 in a big action packer they did not like that they said the action packer was not a hard case. Well after the supervisor came they approved it. 9-1-2010
2. Missoula, Montana they did not like my action packer with one lock they said it had to be 2 locks he said they could get in it he tried for 10 minutes but could not get in with the one lock. Then some ammo came loose in my checked luggage they did not like that at all. I had to put it back in the box and they taped it with special FBI tape. 11-1-2010
3. Reno, Nevada Then my dumb kicked in I thought I left a box of ammo in the guides truck on a bear hunt. Guess what it was in my carry on. If you want excitement in an airport go thru security with ammo in your carry on. 11-20-2010
4. Dubai they confiscated my scopes leaving the airport had to go to the police station in the airport they found them and they gave them to the pilot when we boarded and they gave them back to me in Houston when we landed. 8-1-2008 Not TSA

Oh well not breaking rocks in a Federal prison just back in Clovis, NM
Larry

03 February 2011, 17:21

Larry Sellers

Larry - Sounds like lots of exciting times for sure in this crazy World of air travel?

Should you say, "just back in bitter cold New Mexico"? It was -23 degrees at my place this AM.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:
Originally posted by elk88101:
Had only 4 problems with TSA (3) of them this year.
1. Anchorage, Alaska I carry my Blaser R-93 in a big action packer they did not like that they said the action packer was not a hard case. Well after the supervisor came they approved it. 9-1-2010
2. Missoula, Montana they did not like my action packer with one lock they said it had to be 2 locks he said they could get in it he tried for 10 minutes but could not get in with the one lock. Then some ammo came loose in my checked luggage they did not like that at all. I had to put it back in the box and they taped it with special FBI tape. 11-1-2010
3. Reno, Nevada Then my dumb kicked in I thought I left a box of ammo in the guides truck on a bear hunt. Guess what it was in my carry on. If you want excitement in an airport go thru security with ammo in your carry on. 11-20-2010
4. Dubai they confiscated my scopes leaving the airport had to go to the police station in the airport they found them and they gave them to the pilot when we boarded and they gave them back to me in Houston when we landed. 8-1-2008 Not TSA

Oh well not breaking rocks in a Federal prison just back in Clovis, NM
Larry

04 February 2011, 06:14

nickh

Larry,
I PURPOSELY GOT TO THE AIRPORT EARLY SO IF TSA REFUSED TO CHECK THEM ON CARRY ON I COULD RECHECK THEM IN . DAMNED IF I WOULD TOSS $5K WORTH OF SCOPES IN THE TRASH, YOU CANT BE SERIOUS!!

04 February 2011, 15:08

larrys01

I posted on this a year or so ago. I spoke on the phone with someone from TSA. A scope is considered a fireaem part and cannot be in your carry on bag. Some TSA people still allow it, but it only takes one that don't to fowl things up for you! It's just easier to pack them in your gun case.

04 February 2011, 17:09

bookman

quote:
Originally posted by LionHunter:
The real problem is foreign countries. They seem most often to deny scopes in carry-on. I always leave mine on my rifles, but have had hunting partners have to run back to the "gun room" to put their scopes back in their rifle cases after security deemed their scopes to be prohibited. Fortunately their gun cases had not been moved to the plane! RSA is great for this.

YES! It is the same for ANY government employee, they are employed by the employer of last resort! The TSA nose pickers are the lowest of the low!

As for TSA, life becomes simpler when you accept that anyone associated with them is a complete idiot who was unable to get a real job. Make that employee an anonymous internet responder and you have created a person who is allowed to perform at the level of a bag full of hammers.

What I hope you will do is forward the email series to the airport TSA manager, Janet Napolitano and your federal elected officials. It's your tax dollars at work.

05 February 2011, 03:15

Use Enough Gun

I would, and always do, pack my scopes with my rifles. No exceptions for me. It's not worth the hassle or potential trouble.

05 February 2011, 04:48

enfieldspares

Here in UK - despite our restrictive gun laws - sometimes commonsense operates.

A "gun part" is defined in case law as being a "pressure bearing component".

That is to say if it is impinged on by the pressure of the explosion of the cartridge...it is a "gun part". If it isn't then it isn't a "gun part".

So stocks, magazines, grips, bolt shrouds from a Mauser 98, sights, sight mounts, the springs, triggers etc., etc., are not gun parts.

Scopes aren't. Silencers for cartridge firing rifles are.

06 February 2011, 23:19

safari-lawyer

No scopes in carry on, period.

08 February 2011, 00:56

samir

I flew with 2 scopes in my carry on to Africa in 2003 and 2006 with no problems, but you never know with TSA.