I got a text today saying there were a good many members (30ish is what the text said) that left the ACGG. Does the story hold water?

Adam

I resigned also...

Well there it is, thank you for the info. I'm sure the reasons behind are true. The guild doesn't make the men, the men make the guild.

Adam

Adam, Anonymous information should always be suspect and verified before belief. For you to imply that you know the reasons for individual members of the Guild to resign is simply not true and only serves to besmirtch the vast majority of the remaining Guild members who are honest, hard working and talented men. ...Perhaps the ACCG president Michael Ullman would like to comment here...God knows he's done little else in his tenure.

Dave care to disclose your reason? Same for Duane?
Don

Don,....Respectfully no...

Well it is pretty clear that we should see a new guild come onto the scene. I would sure like to see Duane and Dave head a guild that was "a bit more inclusive" of true masters(ie D'arcy, Speedy, etc......).

And a bit less inclusive of the "cake decorators" and "gingerbread makers".

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
I would sure like to see Duane and Dave head a guild that was "a bit more inclusive" of true masters(ie D'arcy, Speedy, etc......).

Great Martial arts and Blade masters tend to stand alone.
True gunBuilding masters should do the same.

They may then donate some of their time to speak and impart their knowledge
at a guild meeting/event, but never really be part of it.

ACGG requires two 'Materpiece quality' examples of work to be submitted and judged,
before membership is allowed.

Yet of all the work I see on the tables, some definitely seems to fall well short of 'masterpiece quality'

But I guess that term is ambiguous/open to interpretation.

ForrestB one said that he would not trust some ACGG smiths, to thread a simple water pipe...

quote:

And a bit less inclusive of the "cake decorators" and "gingerbread makers".

Some self-proclaimed master-chefs are really nothing much more than over-glorified temperamental cooks.

No doubt we will see Adam's name in their ranks in the near future.

Something got lost in translation. I have no idea and don't really care why the members left. It could have been bad sushi at the last meeting. From the point I am standing it's akin to a Tee-Baller watching MLB. As I was saying guild or no guild if you earn the respect and title, it's yours.

quote:

Originally posted by ab_bentley:
Well there it is, thank you for the info. I'm sure the reasons behind are TRUE. The guild doesn't make the men, the men make the guild.

TRUE: Straight and honest to ones self

This was the issue here, I don't presume to know the answer, it was meant as a definition of in line with the persons life and choice, not that I knew the answer and was a confirmation of my belief.

Adam

Just to impart a wee bit to this discussion, a message from the BOD directly to me stated only TWO members have resigned. The "thirty" number stems from an administration error, that has been taken care of, which caused those "thirty" to be dropped from the rolls due to an automatic, computerised, fault. These members have simply been notified that they were in arrears and, hopefully, will be automatically reinstated upon receipt of annual dues. I have been assured that the problem will not happen in the future.

I was originally responsible for fanning the fire and readily admit I was wrong.

'nuf said?

Jim,

Again, with the dealings you and I have had recently I must say there is no concern on my part. Again, I greatly appreciate the help you gave me.

Adam

Jim, actually I know of at least three regular members who have resigned, including one who dropped from regular membership to associate. Quess we will have to see how many regulars send in their dues to renew. Also could that "thirty" number Have included associate members? ...Dave

I wish to thank David and Duane for all they have contributed over the years to the ACGG. Their wisdom and council will be missed. I have benefitted from knowing both men. I hope to continue to benefit from their knowledge as I have need. I honor them both for their skills and abilities.

As for "gingerbread" or "cake decorating", if you don't have a conversation with an ACGG member about your likes and dislikes, how is he/she to know what to create for you?

In the ten years I have been part of the ACGG every project on the table for view was done to a clients specific request. They graciously allowed me to show it for public viewing at our Exhibitions. I am thankful they allowed me the opportunity to show off my abilities. Please stop by in January to see what else has been done for others.

I don't improve unless someone else gives me input about something that needs improvement. The excellent members of the ACGG have given me that opportunity and I am thankful to all who have given of their knowledge and time to advise me. I am a better craftsman because of the affiliation I have had with the ACGG over the past 19 years as both an Associate member and as an ACGG Profession Member.

I have asked several former members of the ACGG and several well respected Craftsmen why they are no longer or not members. The common answer: The ACGG doesn't add to the bottom line of my business as I thought it would or could.

I desired to be a member since Darwin Hensley encouraged me to do so in 1995. The only "court" for a no name craftsman to break into the business was the ACGG. I could be judged by the craftsmen/women I deemed worthy of honor to prove to myself I had the skills worthy of being called a Custom Stockmaker. It took me many years to garner the needed skills to finally submit to the adjudication process of membership. I have had excellent mentors and I hope to be one to others...the reason the ACGG was originally formed... as I understand it. These are my thoughts and by no means represent the ACGG BOD or EC.

quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Earl Smith:
I have asked several former members of the ACGG and several well respected Craftsmen why they are no longer or not members.
The common answer: The ACGG doesn't add to the bottom line of my business as I thought it would or could.

The ACGG was formed as an 'Artisans Guild' ,...not primarily as a platform for profit making.

Why knowingly bring home a baby elephant only to abandon it because it does not purr like a kitten?


Q./..is Lee Helgeland still with the ACGG?

I may be wrong but I think Lee is still with us.

Jim

ACGG firearm #18, The 1903 Springfield, 100th Anniversary.
(Cover of Gun Digest, 2003) 2681 raffle tickets sold at $20, each, for total of $53,620.00

Q./ Does all that money raised from such a raffle go to the ACGG organisation,
ie; do all the ACGG craftsmen involved totally donate their time and/or materials,components,
when collectively building an ACGG Raffle rifle,
or are they each financially compensated for their efforts?

quote:

raffle

What, no raffle? A terrible move I believe.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
The alphabet boys have put an end to the raffles

I find that rather disappointing.
I personally felt the annual ACGG firearm raffle really helped raise the profile of the ACGG and it craftsmen.
and in part, helped promote the global custom rifle industry as a whole.

The purpose of bureaucracy is to protect the bureaucrats!

Federal interstate gambling laws prohibited the interstate sales of raffle tickets

quote:

Originally posted by dave wesbrook:
Federal interstate gambling laws prohibited the interstate sales of raffle tickets

Hmm...Powerball is a lottery played over all 43 states that allow lotteries.

Powerball...What the fuck!!! COMPARSION ASININE....Many "Dedicated Members" Of the ACGG spent countless hours researching and making inquires in every state and all federal agencies governing interstate gambling---specifically "Interstate sale of raffle tickets" and also the convayence of those tickets. ...It was not legal to sell tickets. ....If you want to start a political argument there is a forum for that. This thread is disscussing those decisions and actions taken by the ACGG.

quote:

Originally posted by dave wesbrook:
What the fuck!!! COMPARSION ASININE.....If you want to start a political argument there is a forum for that.

Sheesh.. I was just wondering. Remind me never to discuss anything with you unless you are on your meds. Better yet, you are now the only person on my ignore list.

Fine with me. I read several pages of your previous posts. ...isn't a great loss

Unfortunately, your comment still shows in the "New Since Your Last Visit" search. No matter. You barely have a few dozen posts in this forum. I recommend this book for you: How Win Friends Influence People

I'll not respond to that considering that you are hidihg behind a mask of anonymity.

Welcome to AR. I went back and reviewed your prior posts. With your attitude, you will fit right in.

Hmmmm... congenial fellow that Mr. Wesbrook is, I have to wonder why on earth he would resign from the ACGG. He seems so easy to get along with...

Ive seen worse,..anyone remember the ACGG member who,online,
openly threatened to beat the living daylights out of an AR member?

Some ACGG members have also attacked me online,
when I exposed the ongoing fraudulent and dishonest practices of a 'repeat offender' business operator,
within their own industry.

Internal politics are only part of the ACGGs problems.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
Hmmmm... congenial fellow that Mr. Wesbrook is, I have to wonder why on earth he would resign from the ACGG. He seems so easy to get along with...

Dave is an extremely talented and an influential stock maker. As forthright as he was at the ACGG shows I am shocked that he would turn Victorian here.

So Dave, did the ACGG take any action to effect a possible change in the law to allow the interstate sale of raffle tickets for non profit organizations? What brought this alleged illegal activity to light? Was the ACGG threatened with any legal action in regards to the raffle?

Marly, They did not challenge or try to change Federal laws. As for your next two questions, they are neither your concern nor business

Is the ACGG the same guild that used to show at the Reno Nugget Hotel during the same time SCI was going on, or is it an offshoot group?

Seems to me I recall some internal issues with the group that showed in Reno, causing / creating a split of some kind.

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
Is the ACGG the same guild that used to show at the Reno Nugget Hotel during the same time SCI was going on, or is it an offshoot group?

Seems to me I recall some internal issues with the group that showed in Reno, causing / creating a split of some kind.

That's the one. In some respects it's a great organization, in other respects it reminds me of a bunch of little old ladies in a sewing circle.

quote:

Dave is an extremely talented and an influential stock maker. As forthright as he was at the ACGG shows I am shocked that he would turn Victorian here.

Talented or not, he just shows his true colors as a newbie on the board. Victorian is not the word I would have used. There are other telented people here that are also gentlemen. Duane, Jason, Jim, Chic, just to name a few.

"Guild members share a common bond: they work toward passing on and perfecting the art of custom firearms."

I think if the ACGG is to be successful they really need to be an orginazation that focuses on further educating the students of the trade, and think less of "what can the ACGG do for me". Ive had some interaction with members outlined below.

While attending Colorado School of Trades I had the priveledge of meeting a few guild members. An instructor at the school, Michael Tulowitski, put together a day where a few members of the guild came to the school, showed off their work, talked to students out on the floor, and some even gave demonstration or spoke about gunmaking tasks. Members consisted of Jerry Fisher, Doug Turnbull, Steve Bertram, James Bisio, and I know im missing one or two others. I dont think these people were paid for their time, rather coming on thier own. In one day this small group of people inspired a few minds and promoted the Guild well.

I remember Jerry Fisher took a liking to a project I was working on and talked with me for about an hr over it, all the while showing me pictures of his own work in a scrap book and encouraging me to try things. At the end of the conversation he said if he was a younger man he would have wanted me for an apprentice. Who knows if that would have ever truly happened, but it was a confidence booster and another thing that confirmed I made the right decision in going in the direction I went. After I graduated I also believe Fisher came back to the school and spent a few months working with the instructors to better the education they could give the students.

Also while attending school I talked to Chic Worthing who was I believe at the time a memeber. He always went out of his way to answer questions, and never seemed annoyed. Also I remember asking a question online, and in response Dennis Earl Smith sent a packet of educational info for free. These experiences will probably lead me to join the Guild in a few years when I feel my work is up to the standard I set, and worthy of being put to use educating others. I'm only 23, I have plenty of time.

On the other hand I was contacted by a member and set up talking to him about becoming an apprentice. He heard what school I went to and said "the school didnt bode well with him", and then insinutated I wouldnt last. he had'nt seen a lick of my work, and didnt know a thing about me. During the short exchange he made it apparant he really didnt have the time to be talking, but I was welcome to try and sway him. After reading further into the conversation I had no desire to reply back, working with a person like that does'nt interest me.

Those are my experieneces, good and bad. Take what you want from it.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):

quote:

Originally posted by marley7x57:
So Dave, did the ACGG take any action to effect a possible change in the law to allow the interstate sale of raffle tickets for non profit organizations? What brought this alleged illegal activity to light? Was the ACGG threatened with any legal action in regards to the raffle?

Pretty well stands to reason that the ACGG would have continued with raffles unless "advised" by compotent authority to cease and desist.

Indeed and your previous post before mine stated that. My questions were an effort to gain some insight on whether the board would be proactive or not and how the issue came to light. You seemed to take the questions better than others and certainly responded more civilly.

Ive gotten numerous PM's over the subject and the consensus is that the Guild is content with doing the same thing over and over, but hopes for a different outcome. By nature gunmakers are an independent bunch which doesnt translate into individuals coming together to provide vision to make the Guild more than it is.

This is just paraphrasing the messages.

On other subjects by product of raise I tend to believe success or failure is your responsibility or in the case of failure your fault; lots of money isnt the only indicator of success also. The is the very reason one student of the same school can do well and the other not be capable of much. Same thing applies to gunmakers in the field, and to the Guild itself.

In a glorious world a Guild orginization that is successful at bringing custom gun making to the consumer/raising consumer demand, and members that help educate/pass on talents to dedicated workers wanting in the field should bode well. Getting there is the challenge.

I'm completely on the outside of this discussion, but to me the Guild is beside the point if there isn't sufficient demand for top level custom gun work in America to support the smiths that produce it. The ACGG seems to exist to support the one man, stand alone operation, which seems to be largely not economically viable to hear people talk about it. If Duane Weibe can't earn as much as an electrician, (and I'm taking him at his word on that statement) then it doesn't matter what the Guild does or doesn't do. The trade (for the solo practitioner) is basically dead or on terminal life support and this or that trade organization isn't going to change anything.

The ACGG should provide the formal gateway to a rigorous apprenticeship with an ACGG smith after getting a certificate at a trade school, but that sort of organization and intrusion would never be allowed by members I'm sure. Because that's not really what it's about, although it makes noise like it is...

As far as I know the only formal apprenticeship leading to journeyman's papers (and eventual Master designation) in gunsmithing in the whole country happens at Colonial Williamsburg. Why is that level of trade instruction considered historical reenactment, instead of being a model we could learn a lot from, and perhaps emulate?