Does anyone still hunt with their custom Don Allen rifles. I do not mean the ones made by Dakota Arms, but rather the ones he made on various actions while he had his shop in Northfield, Minnesota.

i do,but don never made one. al lind did

This post is a marvel of clarity. Let me paraphrase...

Lindy2: "Do you have a rifle made by Don Allen?"

Butchbloc: "Yes, but he didn't make it."

I think what he was referring to is that the man farmed out a lot of his stockwork and passed it off as his own.

Don and I were best friends. We went through Air Force Flight school together and while I had built a few rifles I'd stocked previously Don really mentored me and taught me how to really do the work. I later talked Don into going to work for Northwest Airlines ( for which he never forgave me cause we were always out on strike) and we hunted and worked together until Don Passed. For someone to say Don never built a custom rifle is a load of bull! I still have two rifles he built for me when we were in flight school in 1965 and the first Dakota 76 which he personally built. I stocked one rifle for Don when he was living in Northfield, MN and that's it! Don was the greatest stockmaker I ever met

PS: Don never claimed credit for some other mans work!

Butchloc

Perhaps you purchased the one rifle that Mr. Lind stocked for Mr. Allen while he was in Northfield. Care to show photos of it?

courtesy of Hallowellco.

http://www.hallowellco.com/don...ustom_fn_mauser.html

quote:

Metalwork by Don Allen with pillar-bedded FN Mauser action, hinged floorplate, Canjar trigger

and Model 70-type safety---Mr. Allen's submission piece for admission to

the American Custom Gunmakers' Guild as a metalsmith.

What a gorgeous piece of walnut on that rifle.

Yes it is .

the rifle on the bottom is one that don made for a fellow pilot in nfld. who sold it to me a few years back. it has al llind stamped in the barrel channel. rifle is a sako 222 hb

Why would Don stamp Al's name on a rifle he made?

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:
Why would Don stamp Al's name on a rifle he made?

You're not really serious are you?

Montea6b

Its a delight to have you in on the conversation. The more the merrier.

You seem to have an interest in this subject.
Do you have some Don Allen Rifles? Or did you know Don personally? Or what can you add to the knowledge base?

(if you have some of Don's older rifles please show them)

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:
Why would Don stamp Al's name on a rifle he made?

You're not really serious are you?

Actually I'm quite serious. I don't understand this at all... I would expect a rifle made by Don to be stamped with Don's name and a rifle made by Al to be stamped with Al's name. What am I missing?

Just for clarification and to maybe shed some light on the subject.
I have a 35 Whelen. Ed LaPour did the metalwork, Jim Kobe did the stockwork(from a blank) and rust blueing. What should I call it ? A LaPour or Kobe ?

that is a great question, and it will be interesting to see what others have to say about it!

I suppose if you were thinking alphabetical you'd have to call it the Kobe - LaPour Rifle.
But maybe you have to call it by who did the metalwork first, or by who did the stockwork first. And maybe you have to put in there who did the first metalwork on it (who made the action and who made the barrel if done by somebody other than the person who did the metalwork. So you could have the mauser - Krieger - LaPour - Kobe rifle!!! And do you add the name of the engraver if the rifle has some engraving on it?

But a Ford isn't really a fine custom handmade car.

I have no knowledge of this subject other than what I have read on this forum. There was a thread not long ago on this very topic ie. that custom gunmakers often "farm out the work" on certain aspects of the firearm, and therefore to what extent is it "their" work. I think that as long as the buyer understands this, it may be a moot point.
Peter.
PS. butchloc seems to me, based on his posts to be an honorable and knowledgeable man, and generally seems to knows whereof he speaks.
PPS. The link shows this comment:
"Mr. Allen's submission piece for admission to

the American Custom Gunmakers' Guild as a metalsmith."

enuf of who did what - just appreciate a beautiful rifle. by the way i made the top one long ago - another sako, but i call it a sako

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
But a Ford isn't really a fine custom handmade car.

The Ford powered AC Cobra more or less was a hand built car.
Shelby took much of the credit, but it was in fact first built/modified in Great Britain to Mr. Shelbys specs.
British expat skilled workers then came to the US to build the cars in Venice,California for Shelby.

However Shelby did acknowledge the British AC Car companies part in the manufacture by calling it the: 'AC Cobra'.

And then we have the famous Ford GT40, the orig. of which was developed in the the UK- Abbey Panels constructed the advanced monocoque chassis.
Ford enlisted the technical assistance of British Lola Cars and and ex-Aston Martin man John Wyer, to make the GT-40 happen.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:
Why would Don stamp Al's name on a rifle he made?

You're not really serious are you?

Actually I'm quite serious. I don't understand this at all... I would expect a rifle made by Don to be stamped with Don's name and a rifle made by Al to be stamped with Al's name. What am I missing?

OK, so actually I was just a little bit serious...

I completely understand that the metalwork and stockwork on custom rifles is often done by different craftsmen. I was asking an oversimplistic question to make a point and provoke a response from Butchbloc: If Don Allen did the metal work and Al Lind did the stock, (which seems to be the case here) who "made the rifle"? (the answer is really both, right?) It all goes back to the second post in this string where he claimed that "Don never made one. Al Lind did".

It is a rhetorical question, and Texas Killartist posed the same question in a slightly different way - "what should I call it?" In answer to that, I would designate any rifle first and foremost by chambering and action, and secondly by the craftsmen who customized it. For example, "Winchester model 70 in 35 Whelen, by LaPour and Kobe." That's strictly personal though.

Recognition of the artisans with engraved names as Duane described (and has posted pictures of...) is certainly appropriate on a high end custom and looks good when done tastefully.

Seems like there is still some disagreement though on what Mr. Allen may have farmed out. Not that it matters to me, I don't own one of his rifles, did not know him personally, and I guess I'm not really adding to the knowledge base either. Sorry if I stirred the pot a little in your thread Lindy2. Glad I could provide some delight however...

If one orders a Purdey, do the different individual craftsmen involved get individual name recognition put on the product,
i.e.; for the separate work they each performed concerning the barrels, the lockwork and then the stock work?

Did John Rigby and Co. name the numerous Germany based craftsmen who did much of the work on those bespoke bolt rifles?

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
If one orders a Purdey, do the different individual craftsmen involved get individual name recognition put on the product,
i.e.; for the separate work they each performed concerning the barrels, the lockwork and then the stock work?

Did John Rigby and Co. name the numerous Germany based craftsmen who did much of the work on those bespoke bolt rifles?

I don't care either way, but you do realize Co., Ltd., or Inc. might change the game a bit here.

I saw one or two through the last couple years for sale, got to be someone shooting them.
GENERALLY: It's nice to know who did he major parts of a build. I adds value in my opinion. I bet many other specialists would have proudly told or did proudly tell their customer who did any other work for that matter. EDITED A BIT .....What it boils down to is the person who took the order is the general contractor and he should put his name on it unless the order specifies a joint or multi-venture. After all if the sub-contractor he hired messes up, he will have to eat the cost of any consequences or lose his integrity and most likely go out of business. Just my non-professional angle.

Do any of you read? Al explained it himself earlier in the thread and mentioned that Don really taught him how to stock a gun...

"Don was the greatest stockmaker I ever met"

a quote from Al Lind earlier in this very thread. Me thinks Don had a decent handle on how to whittle a stock of wood from the beginning of his offering guns under his own name. Read people......

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Do any of you read? Al explained it himself earlier in the thread and mentioned that Don really taught him how to stock a gun...

"Don was the greatest stockmaker I ever met"

a quote from Al Lind earlier in this very thread. Me thinks Don had a decent handle on how to whittle a stock of wood from the beginning of his offering guns under his own name. Read people......

Nobody here has claimed he couldn't stock a rifle, the question is how much stockwork he may have farmed out on his production rifles. (not because he wasn't capable, but due to volume, desire to focus on metalwork, etc.)

skb makes a good point.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
If one orders a Purdey, do the different individual craftsmen involved get individual name recognition put on the product,
i.e.; for the separate work they each performed concerning the barrels, the lockwork and then the stock work?

Did John Rigby and Co. name the numerous Germany based craftsmen who did much of the work on those bespoke bolt rifles?

I don't care either way, but you do realize Co., Ltd., or Inc. might change the game a bit here.

Yet, you will see ex-Purdey craftsman Peter Nelsons initials on Hartmann & Weiss branded doubles.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):

A Ford pickup does not acknowledge Clyde Suckfinger for bolted in the engine, or the man who designed the grille...it's a Ford!

However, a bespoke AMG-Mercedes will have the particular individual in-house master engine builder credited,
by having his name inscribed on a dedicated plaque, positioned to be clearly visible atop the engine.

Then you have late model Shelby Mustangs, with Carroll Shelbys signature plated on them, yet he didn't personally build those cars.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
If one orders a Purdey, do the different individual craftsmen involved get individual name recognition put on the product,
i.e.; for the separate work they each performed concerning the barrels, the lockwork and then the stock work?

Did John Rigby and Co. name the numerous Germany based craftsmen who did much of the work on those bespoke bolt rifles?

I don't care either way, but you do realize Co., Ltd., or Inc. might change the game a bit here.

Yet, you will see ex-Purdey craftsman Peter Nelsons initials on Hartmann & Weiss branded doubles.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):

A Ford pickup does not acknowledge Clyde Suckfinger for bolted in the engine, or the man who designed the grille...it's a Ford!

However, a bespoke AMG-Mercedes will have the particular individual in-house master engine builder credited,
by having his name inscribed on a dedicated plaque, positioned to be clearly visible atop the engine.

Then you have late model Shelby Mustangs, with Carroll Shelbys signature plated on them, yet he didn't personally build those cars.

That's interesting. I've never heard of anyone working for more than one company before. Enlightening.

Not bespoke. All AMGs have the engine builder plaque on the engine. More of a marketing thing. Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche and Aston Martin don't.

Aston Martin has a plaque by the door sill "Built for______," without any assembler's names.



Regardless, I was under the impression the common nomenclature for American custom rifles is usually metalsmith & stocker in that order. That is stamped on the barrel. Often the engraver will be mentioned in the next sentence- he/she usually indiscreetly signs or initials their work. Or in the case of an assembler who subcontracts out - his name is stamped, though the other craftsman may sneak in a non visible stamp. The possibilities are endless- I know Curt Crum (of the Miller Co) only turns Parick Holehan's blanks- but that is totally irrelevant.

eg I have a Johnson & Gervais .338 Win (sans engraving)

butchloc Darn nice rifles/wood especially the top one, awesome cheek piece and ebony tip. I love that combo.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
Not bespoke. All AMGs have the engine builder plaque on the engine. More of a marketing thing.
Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche and Aston Martin don't.

AMG is in fact the bespoke tunning division For Mercedes.
The world wide luxury-performance motor industry sector well recognises AMG as a bespoke product.

Aston Martin has contracted to fit their new vehicles with AMG built & signed engines.
The Pagani Huayra super car [US$1.4m], contracted AMG to custom-spec build its ultra exclusive and bespoke 6.0 litre V12.

If that AMG implant with builders signature,aint truly bespoke, then nothing is.

Having owned all said cars I can assure you an AMG is not bespoke- a dime a dozen. Certainly not the same as Ferrari or AM.

It's just a faster Mercedes. Nothing more, nothing less. You go through the same configurator with just a different set of options. And the guy who assembled the engine has a plaque on it. Big fucking deal. Nice cars- had 2 of them, faster, but not that special- still just a Benz.

An Aston Martin with engine supplied by Ford is bespoke, but a Mercedes SLS AMG Black Series ,...isn't????...

I tell you what, Call the Pagani super car manufacturer in Italy and tell him that this custom AMG engines are not bespoke.

BY your logic a custom Magnum Mauser would also not be bespoke, because just like an AMG, it has just been made more fancy and refined by a specialised tunning house.

I don't have to call anyone I've owned them dumbass- have you?

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I don't have to call anyone I've owned them dumbass- have you?

THE motoring industry at large calls & considers AMG bespoke, but because you have owned just some of them,
they are now not bespoke?

Why would Aston Martin choose AMG as their new engine supplier if they are not inline with traditional Aston Martin bespoke product reputation & values?

Intelligent knowledgable people in the industry are savouring & crediting AM for making such a move to AMG engines.
saying that it will positively lift the brand name of AM even further.

However, You better go tell them they are making a huge mistake, that they need to keep getting their engines from Ford Motor Co.

Anyone who considers Pagani super cars and SLS AMG Black Series, that are being powered by exclusive spec. AMG power units, as not being bespoke,
has got to have rocks in their head.

AMG is a world respected bespoke power unit builder-supplier, regardless of whether the individual engine builder signs his name on the engine or not.

"Bespoke"



Im starting to dislike that word...

I take it from your continued editing of your posts the answer is no.

If you had, you'd know what I was talking about.

No need to keep editing, I'm done.

PS I'm actually a big MB guy- on my tenth since '91 (2 AMGs)

You avoided explaining how a Ford powered car is considered bespoke, but a custom spec. AMG powered car is not.
That would be hilarious.... Hence I can see why you've decided to stop short and be done on the subject.