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How many here feel that when getting a custom Stock built for your DG Bolt Rifle that Cast is an important factor
any remarks are appreciated
 
Posts: 1458 | Location: Vermont | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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Depends on the application and more than some people realize. Yes, if you can get it for a big game hunting rifle especially when set up for iron sight use as well as with a scope when used off hand from just ahead of the muzzle or sitting wrapped up in a sling or laying prone resting over a pack for shots from 200 to 400 yards under normal everyday field conditions.

Arguably Most shooters can get by just fine with zero Cast On or Off. The one stock fits all system has work pretty well for an awful long time. The average thickness of ones face and related anatomy can allow most shooters to get by with zero Cast On or Off.

There are exceptions with everything. I had a potential client approached me at an SCI convention back in the late 80's. Steve was 6 feet plus and weighed just a little over 300 lbs. That day at the convention he had already been to the Holland & Holland booth and the David Miller Booth with no joy looking for someone to build him a left handed stock for his anatomy while using a right handed Pre-64 Model 70. While Steve was left handed and left eye dominate he had grown up shooting a standard right handed Model 70 and I would soon witness that he was wicked in his manipulation of the bolt. A pattern stock was made for Steve with the barreled action chambered for 375 H&H, fit with both Iron Sights and Scope using Burgess detachable rings. The pattern stock was set up to acquire the Iron Sights 1st per his request. He flew in so I could fit a pattern stock to him over an afternoon that included shooting the rifle in the pattern stock. That started a wonderful business relationship and friendship. While he loved nicely built firearms he also used them every chance he could under what ever conditions where required.

If you're having a stock made for you then having the option to include some cast can make the rifle more comfortable to shoot quickly if required. My daughter is 5" 3" and has slight build. Her typical LOP is 13" unless she's hunting in real heavy clothing. The butt on her rifle is made with Cast Off and the rifle is scoped. Can she adapt and shoot a longer or shorter LOP with no cast, yes she can but.....

While not a rifle her recently re-stocked Model 12 has 1/4" Cast at the heel 5/16 " Cast at the toe and approx. 1/8" at the face position. Pitch is 4 degrees. All this was determined with a pattern stock one afternoon along with her shooting at a pattern board and then 1000 plus clays over a summer and fall. The more clays she broke the more her confidence level increased. At one point for the sake of cosmetic appeal I opened up the grip at least 1/4" to the rear on the pattern. I really liked the looks but she immediately started dropping targets left and right. On the 2nd afternoon shortly after this grip conversion she handed it back to me and said "Dad ,change it back to how it was". Out came the Bondo and soon she was dusting targets again. The French walnut replaced that Bondo special shortly thereafter. So can it make a difference with a bolt gun stock ?? In short Yes I think it can for most hunting applications and shooters.

It's nice to incorporate if a stock is being replaced and "made to fit", otherwise I wouldn't worry all that much about.

All my Fiberglass Legend stocks come out of the mold at McMillan with either Cast On or Off by design. It is set of course and none adjustable due to the nature of the beast but I feel is an advantage for a Big Game rifle or I wouldn't have incorporated into the design.


Bench rest competition of any type 100 to 1000 yards ? not hardly ! as a Cast stock won't allow the rifle to track in recoil in a straight rearward line when shot in a free recoil situation making the whole exercise futile at best. Varmint hunting it's not required for the same reasons really.

Just one mans opinion
 
Posts: 601 | Registered: 30 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Correct my thinking on this. cast off is cast away from the shooter whether left or right hand? Is cast on toward the shooter?


Jim Kobe
10841 Oxborough Ave So
Bloomington MN 55437

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Posts: 5199 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 10 July 2002Reply With Quote
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If you are right handed you would need Cast Off
If you are left handed you would also need your gun to be Cast Off but perhaps to add or subtract from confusion left handed require Cast On
 
Posts: 1458 | Location: Vermont | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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I shoot left handed. I own a number of shotguns and rifles that are stocked for me and include cast on'. If you want to shoot well, especially with a shotgun, I think fit (including cast and pitch)are important.

I was recently fitted for a DG rifle by James Tucker and Reto Buehler, who is building the .404J for me. If you are having a rifle built it only makes sense to have it fitted and built to accommodate your particular build and way of mounting and sighting a rifle.

Works for me.
 
Posts: 816 | Location: S. E. Arizona | Registered: 01 February 2019Reply With Quote
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Some stockmakers leave a lot of meat on the comb of the stock. This style would require more cast than a slim comb.


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Posts: 1622 | Location: Western South Dakota | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Zephyr:
If you are right handed you would need the stock to Cast Off from your face
If you are left handed you would also need your gun to be Cast Off from your face but perhaps to add or subtract from confusion or we live in a right handed world left handed guns require Cast On

If someone can explain this better than please do
Thanks
 
Posts: 1458 | Location: Vermont | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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Cast is simply moving the vertical centerline of the stock either RIGHT (Cast Off) or left (Cast On). This may also involve some modification of the toe of the stock to better accommodate the shape of the shooter's shoulder pocket and style of mounting the gun.
 
Posts: 816 | Location: S. E. Arizona | Registered: 01 February 2019Reply With Quote
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If we consider a Big Bore DG rifle of proper weight and proper stock dimensions.... will Cast Off and Toe Out further help mitigate recoil
 
Posts: 1458 | Location: Vermont | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Alec Torres:
Cast is simply moving the vertical centerline of the stock either RIGHT (Cast Off) or left (Cast On). This may also involve some modification of the toe of the stock to better accommodate the shape of the shooter's shoulder pocket and style of mounting the gun.



This is how I always understood it - cast on/off direction is fixed and not relative to the handedness of the shooter.
 
Posts: 7085 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Zephyr:
If we consider a Big Bore DG rifle of proper weight and proper stock dimensions.... will Cast Off and Toe Out further help mitigate recoil


I think it will mitigate apparent recoil.
 
Posts: 816 | Location: S. E. Arizona | Registered: 01 February 2019Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by K W Johnston:
If my understanding is correct on the subjest:

Cast On/Off, Length of Pull, Drop at Comb, Drop at Heel, Toe in/out... all work together for proper fitment to the shooter. You can make the case that a properly fitted gun MIGHT help with felt recoil vs one that isn't fitted. The MAJOR benefit of a properly fitted stock is that when the gun is brought to your shoulder, your eye is automatically aligned with the sights or scope and in the case of a shotgun the top rib.

On an open sight rifle for Dangerous Game I bet a properly fitted stock is a real benefit. When the gun is brought to your shoulder you are aligned with the iron sights and ready to fire. On a scope sighted rifle with low magnification it would probably be the same. High magnification, shooting from a blind at longer range most folks just wiggle around until they are comfortable.

The trouble is getting fitted. Best way I know of is to find a sporting clays instructor with a try gun and have them fit you. Some stock makers use a try gun ( I think James Tucker is one) but fitting a shooter really is a unique skill that needs to be done at the shooting range. You shouldn't judge your stockmaker poorly if they do not provide a try gun or a stock fitting session... You SHOULD judge your stockmaker poorly if they are unwilling or unable to craft a stock for you with the dimensions you provide from a gun fitting.

Hope that helps.


I agree, but shotgun stocks are usually LONGER (Length of pull) than rifle stocks. I shoot a shotgun with 14-3/4" LOP and about 3/4" shorter with rifles. I think that this is due to the typical shooter's stance is different when shooting a shotgun. Maybe it works better with a double rifle, I don't know, since I do not own a double rifle, but lots of SxS shotguns.
 
Posts: 816 | Location: S. E. Arizona | Registered: 01 February 2019Reply With Quote
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If my understanding is correct on the subjest:

Cast On/Off, Length of Pull, Drop at Comb, Drop at Heel, Toe in/out... all work together for proper fitment to the shooter. You can make the case that a properly fitted gun MIGHT help with felt recoil vs one that isn't fitted. The MAJOR benefit of a properly fitted stock is that when the gun is brought to your shoulder, your eye is automatically aligned with the sights or scope and in the case of a shotgun the top rib.

On an open sight rifle for Dangerous Game I bet a properly fitted stock is a real benefit. When the gun is brought to your shoulder you are aligned with the iron sights and ready to fire. On a scope sighted rifle with low magnification it would probably be the same. High magnification, shooting from a blind at longer range most folks just wiggle around until they are comfortable.

The trouble is getting fitted. Best way I know of is to find a sporting clays instructor with a try gun and have them fit you. Some stock makers use a try gun ( I think James Tucker is one) but fitting a shooter really is a unique skill that needs to be done at the shooting range. You shouldn't judge your stockmaker poorly if they do not provide a try gun or a stock fitting session... You SHOULD judge your stockmaker poorly if they are unwilling or unable to craft a stock for you with the dimensions you provide from a gun fitting.

Other members like Wiebe, Echols, or Anderson are FAR more qualified to give advice than me. Hope that helps.
 
Posts: 177 | Location: Alabama, USA | Registered: 01 August 2014Reply With Quote
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My Clays gun is 15 3/8" my Field guns are 14 7/8 and Big Bore rifles 14 1/2
 
Posts: 1458 | Location: Vermont | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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To answer your question, I prefer it in any custom gun, but especially one where quick handling is important, such as a DG rifle.


One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx
 
Posts: 3560 | Location: Eastern Slope, Colorado, USA | Registered: 01 March 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Zephyr:
If we consider a Big Bore DG rifle of proper weight and proper stock dimensions.... will Cast Off and Toe Out further help mitigate recoil


"Cast off" is moving the comb and butt of the stock away from your face. "Cast on" is moving the comb and butt towards your face. Neither will help mitigate recoil. The amount of drop in the butt can have a big effect on how the gun recoils. The closer you get the heel of the buttplate to the centerline of the bore the more likely the rifle is to recoil straight back. The further you get the heel away from the centerline the more likely the gun is to recoil upwards when fired. I shoot a lot of long range prone with heel of the adjustable buttplate about on centerline with the bore for this reason. If I was to compare the stock profiles of a "modern classic" vs. one of the Griffin and Howe stocks with more drop made for iron sights, I'd say that the G&H would have more perceived recoil.


"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
 
Posts: 748 | Location: Randleman, NC | Registered: 07 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Thank you, my thoughts exactly


Jim Kobe
10841 Oxborough Ave So
Bloomington MN 55437

Professional Member, American Custom Gunmakers Guild,
 
Posts: 5199 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 10 July 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by clowdis:

"Cast off" is moving the comb and butt of the stock away from your face. "Cast on" is moving the comb and butt towards your face.


This only applies to right handed shooters.
Off bends right.
On bends left..
A left handed shooter's correct cast will be cast on.


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Posts: 1622 | Location: Western South Dakota | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by gunmaker:
quote:
Originally posted by clowdis:

"Cast off" is moving the comb and butt of the stock away from your face. "Cast on" is moving the comb and butt towards your face.


This only applies to right handed shooters.
Off bends right.
On bends left..
A left handed shooter's correct cast will be cast on.


James,
If this was the case it seems like it would be cast right or cast left. I haven't heard everything, but I've never heard your description.


"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
 
Posts: 748 | Location: Randleman, NC | Registered: 07 April 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by clowdis:
quote:
Originally posted by gunmaker:
quote:
Originally posted by clowdis:

"Cast off" is moving the comb and butt of the stock away from your face. "Cast on" is moving the comb and butt towards your face.


This only applies to right handed shooters.
Off bends right.
On bends left..
A left handed shooter's correct cast will be cast on.


James,
If this was the case it seems like it would be cast right or cast left. I haven't heard everything, but I've never heard your description.



See here: http://www.boxallandedmiston.c...-and-stocking-style/


I’ve always heard the same as James said. Cast direction is fixed, regardless of left/right hand.


It’s possibly because the vast majority of guns were built right handed and the language remained the same for left handed guns to prevent confusion during manufacture. Dunno...
 
Posts: 7085 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Quick snippet from the article linked below:

quote:
Cast allows a shooter to look straight down the rib, so a cast-off stock is meant for a right-handed person and a cast-on stock for a leftie. Mounting a cast-off stock left-handed results in the shooter looking down the right side of the rib, meaning their eye will not align naturally with the rib.

https://www.agirlandagun.org/how-to-fit-your-shotgun/


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Posts: 1622 | Location: Western South Dakota | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Does a cheek piece actually negate any cast that may be built into a stock?

Also, if a stock doesn’t have any cast, does the cheek piece actually make a right handed stock have effective cast ON?
 
Posts: 145 | Registered: 02 July 2015Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by clowdis:
...if I was to compare the stock profiles of a "modern classic" vs. one of the Griffin and Howe stocks with more drop made for iron sights, I'd say that the G&H would have more perceived recoil.


Actual recoil is governed by Newton's Law. Apparent or 'perceived' recoil can be mitigated by stock fit (cast, LOP, pitch, toe in or out, comb profile, etc.) and by recoil reducers, gun weight, recoil pads and similar devices.

When shooting a rifle, most people accommodate rear sight or scope by moving their head, adjusting the rifle in the shoulder pocket, and by other means. On a shotgun, fit becomes more critical because the shooter's eye IS the rear 'sight'. Shooting a shotgun effectively requires the ability to move, mount and shoot in one fluid motion. In International Skeet, for instance, the shooter has less than one second to acquire the target, mount the gun, and fire. A properly fitted rifle could approach this speed, possibly, with a ghost ring rear and proper front sight AND A WELL FITTED STOCK. In target shooting speed is less critical - even in rapid fire events. Additionally, recoil is much less important/apparent in game shooting than in target shooting. In dangerous game shooting 'instinctive' point and shoot may become far more important than perceived recoil. YMMV.
 
Posts: 816 | Location: S. E. Arizona | Registered: 01 February 2019Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Tex84:
Does a cheek piece actually negate any cast that may be built into a stock?

Also, if a stock doesn’t have any cast, does the cheek piece actually make a right handed stock have effective cast ON?


A cheek piece is largely decoration in my opinion. Of course it will move the face relative to the line of sight. Lately I have opted for no cheek pieces on my rifle stocks as they simply add unnecessary weight and complicate proper alignment with the sights.
 
Posts: 816 | Location: S. E. Arizona | Registered: 01 February 2019Reply With Quote
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Maybe the terminology needs changing to cast away, cast toward, then the terms apply equally to right or left handed shooters. After all the cast of a stock relates to the position of face and alignment of the sighting eye to the sights whether, open, scope or rib and bead therefore the terminology should reflect that, away or toward the face.

A fatter stock and fatter face combination will require more cast away (from the face) for both LH or RH shooters to align the sighting eye whereas the opposite combination (thinner) may require no cast away or possibly if the combo is extreme i.e. very thin stock and face, then some cast toward maybe required.

The setting of eyes in the face will also play a part, wide set eyes or narrow set eyes.
There is the odd situation where a left or right handed shooter will use an opposite master eye e.g. shoot left handed using the right eye. Then the shooter would benefit from some radical cast away to bring the right eye over to align the sights.
 
Posts: 2966 | Location: Nelson, New Zealand | Registered: 03 August 2009Reply With Quote
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Now do you see why I asked?


Jim Kobe
10841 Oxborough Ave So
Bloomington MN 55437

Professional Member, American Custom Gunmakers Guild,
 
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There’s no need for new terminology, only to understand the existing - it’s been around a long time.
 
Posts: 7085 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Alec Torres:
quote:
Originally posted by Tex84:
Does a cheek piece actually negate any cast that may be built into a stock?

Also, if a stock doesn’t have any cast, does the cheek piece actually make a right handed stock have effective cast ON?


A cheek piece is largely decoration in my opinion. Of course it will move the face relative to the line of sight. Lately I have opted for no cheek pieces on my rifle stocks as they simply add unnecessary weight and complicate proper alignment with the sights.


Complicate? That's a new one! HAR!
 
Posts: 2436 | Location: Phone: (253) 535-0066 / (253) 230-5599, Address: PO Box 822 Spanaway WA 98387 | www.customgunandrifle.com | Registered: 16 April 2013Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by BaxterB:
There’s no need for new terminology, only to understand the existing - it’s been around a long time.


So, wghat is correct, or should I say, the more popularly accepted terminology?


Jim Kobe
10841 Oxborough Ave So
Bloomington MN 55437

Professional Member, American Custom Gunmakers Guild,
 
Posts: 5199 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 10 July 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
quote:
Originally posted by BaxterB:
There’s no need for new terminology, only to understand the existing - it’s been around a long time.


So, wghat is correct, or should I say, the more popularly accepted terminology?



Cast off moves the stock to the right of centerline, neutral the stock is inline with centerline, cast on moves the stock left of centerline. No matter what hand the shooter is.

Right hand shooters typically have a cast off stock, left handed cast on.



 
Posts: 7085 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by eagle27:
...
There is the odd situation where a left or right handed shooter will use an opposite master eye e.g. shoot left handed using the right eye. Then the shooter would benefit from some radical cast away to bring the right eye over to align the sights.


The Brits call this a “cross over” stock. It looks a bit strange, but apparently works.
 
Posts: 816 | Location: S. E. Arizona | Registered: 01 February 2019Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Alec Torres:
quote:
Originally posted by eagle27:
...
There is the odd situation where a left or right handed shooter will use an opposite master eye e.g. shoot left handed using the right eye. Then the shooter would benefit from some radical cast away to bring the right eye over to align the sights.


The Brits call this a “cross over” stock. It looks a bit strange, but apparently works.



I’m cross eye dominant but can’t bring myself to switch - just blur the left eye a bit to let the right take over. I was apparently left-handed as a child but my dad kept putting the fork in my right hand, so to speak. Frustratingly, my master left eye is much stronger and clearer than my right, so would have benefited from staying left from the get-go.


I’ve always wondered how long those cross over stocks would last?? Would think that major crook in the wrist would fail.
 
Posts: 7085 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With Quote
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on and off is super simple.
you get 'on' and drive a teamed plow or drag from the left side.
that is the on.
the off is the 'other' or passenger side animal.

it's just borrowed vernacular from plowing a field, or dragging a boat down a canal with two horses or mules, or driving a team of oxen from the ground.
 
Posts: 3909 | Location: soda springs,id | Registered: 02 April 2008Reply With Quote
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I mentioned elsewhere the gunmaking videos by Purdey.

In the stocking video the have a very brief mention of cast off/on and also show one of the crossover stocks.

They are on instagram.
 
Posts: 7085 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Still not clear, seems like a lot of personal opinion with not a lot of fact.


Jim Kobe
10841 Oxborough Ave So
Bloomington MN 55437

Professional Member, American Custom Gunmakers Guild,
 
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Don’t see how it’s not clear. One of the oldest, most highly respected British builders refers to cast off/on as described above. I’d say if they’ve done it for 200 years it’s pretty much fact. Hallowells also describes it that way. Shooting times UK had a brief article on cast saying the same: https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/a...check-gun-fit-110302
 
Posts: 7085 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
Correct my thinking on this. cast off is cast away from the shooter whether left or right hand? Is cast on toward the shooter?



Jim..you're thinkng of a movie starring Tom Hanks???

HAR
 
Posts: 2436 | Location: Phone: (253) 535-0066 / (253) 230-5599, Address: PO Box 822 Spanaway WA 98387 | www.customgunandrifle.com | Registered: 16 April 2013Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
Still not clear, seems like a lot of personal opinion with not a lot of fact.


The explanations given are clear, the terminology has been in general accepted use for well over a century. You are a gunmaker and should be well familiar with this concept and terminology. Are you just being obtuse?
 
Posts: 816 | Location: S. E. Arizona | Registered: 01 February 2019Reply With Quote
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quote:
The explanations given are clear, the terminology has been in general accepted use for well over a century. You are a gunmaker and should be well familiar with this concept and terminology. Are you just being obtuse?


I don't think all gunsmiths are in agreement with the terminology but I do believe we get it right when designing for a customer. While I call "cast on" as being toward the face whether a right or left handed shooter, James Anderson will say that "cast on" is towards the face of a right handed shooter and away from the face of a left handed shooter, I doubt we have ever gotten the stock shape wrong for a customer because of the terminology.


"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
 
Posts: 748 | Location: Randleman, NC | Registered: 07 April 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by clowdis:
quote:
The explanations given are clear, the terminology has been in general accepted use for well over a century. You are a gunmaker and should be well familiar with this concept and terminology. Are you just being obtuse?


I don't think all gunsmiths are in agreement with the terminology but I do believe we get it right when designing for a customer. While I call "cast on" as being toward the face whether a right or left handed shooter, James Anderson will say that "cast on" is towards the face of a right handed shooter and away from the face of a left handed shooter, I doubt we have ever gotten the stock shape wrong for a customer because of the terminology.


Thank you!


Jim Kobe
10841 Oxborough Ave So
Bloomington MN 55437

Professional Member, American Custom Gunmakers Guild,
 
Posts: 5199 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 10 July 2002Reply With Quote
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