Echols action

05 August 2021, 00:23

Doug W

Echols action

quote:
Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
I can only speak for myself but after modifying, re-engineering and correcting the very same issues on action after action for the last 25 years .......... This continued path just seemed senseless with the access to great modern technology just up the street. What is that definition of insanity again ?

&

The threads are not interupted on the extractor side

There is no need for a guide rib and the bolt does'nt bind

Congratulations for making the leap!!
And well done on both design issues.

05 August 2021, 00:31

Fal Grunt

What!? Ol' Douggie is back?

quote:
Originally posted by Doug W:

Anyway, after 10 years of meth night at the Alzheimer center, with zero content of substance, unfocused topics and worshipping of the butter soft steel it is time for me to shove off for Speerchucker Island.

So bye!

05 August 2021, 01:31

Duane Wiebe (CG&R)

Same as pre64 M-70 ...good choice. Maybe you said, but what are the threads... they look fairly fine

05 August 2021, 02:26

Doug W

"The barrel threads are 1.062 x 16 TPI."

Rem 700 shank, good choice.

05 August 2021, 06:22

Doug W

quote:
Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
What!? Ol' Douggie is back?

Ah, but this is content of substance, using modern materials, modern heat treatment, no buttersoft steel or hit and miss heat treat, making an NEW action from scratch and incorporating design decisions, an area I have much interest in.

Oddly Mr Echol's dream to reality action from the M70 end and my receiver from the M98 end converged up in many of the same places.

The exact same choice in barrel shank diameter and thread pitch.
Fully forward recoil lug.
Front guard screw behind the recoil lug.
No cutting through the barrel threads forward of the extractor.
No C ring.
No thumb cut.
No guide rib.
No 3rd lug, use the bolt handle.
No bridge whittled away with guide rib and 3rd lug cuts severely reducing bearing area and achieving wobbly bolt infamy.
M70 trigger.

Imagine that.

05 August 2021, 08:58

gunmaker

quote:
Originally posted by Doug W:

it is time for me to shove off for Speerchucker Island.

So bye!

05 August 2021, 16:08

Doug W

quote:
Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
The lack of radical movement in heat treat and having the receiver and bolt made of different materials allows for a very smooth operating action.

What is the hardness of the 416 stainless receiver?
Is the receiver final machined in the hardened condition?
Which steel and hardness did you chose for the bolt?

thanks!

05 August 2021, 20:14

Woodhits

Got a chance to hold my action in my hands last week-- awesome to see after years of hard work and late nights on D'Arcy's part.

I won't speak for Echols on the hardness or materials but I do know that the action, bolt, etc. are machined on pre-hardened steel.

05 August 2021, 21:16

BaxterB

quote:
Originally posted by Woodhits:
Got a chance to hold my action in my hands last week-- awesome to see after years of hard work and late nights on D'Arcy's part.

I won't speak for Echols on the hardness or materials but I do know that the action, bolt, etc. are machined on pre-hardened steel.

Lucky stiff... I only got to handle the 3-D printed version... alas... ;-(

05 August 2021, 23:18

devere

for mr. Echols, and those who have showed pictures of this action, thank you. It sure looks as if nothing has been forgotten in this design. I am curious whether the receiver extraction cam is a true helix cut like the 03 springfield and M70s or simply an angle milled into the roof of the bridge. congratulations Mr. Echols

05 August 2021, 23:56

DArcy_Echols_Co

Yes there is a matching helix machined into the receiver and the rear of the bolt lugs as well as a matching helix machined into the cocking cam ramp on the bolt and cocking piece ramp to the nose.

06 August 2021, 00:39

devere

mr. E: thankyou. Excellent !!

06 August 2021, 00:50

montea6b

quote:
Originally posted by Doug W:

Fully forward recoil lug.
Front guard screw behind the recoil lug.

I have always wondered why the M70 went this route, and have been kinda more fond of the Mauser design. Specifically, because there is no need to pillar bed the front of the Mauser with its metal to metal contact between the two mating bosses.

Is there any tangible benefit to this feature by "evolving" from the Mauser to the M70 design?

06 August 2021, 01:46

Doug W

quote:
Originally posted by montea6b:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug W:

Fully forward recoil lug.
Front guard screw behind the recoil lug.

I have always wondered why the M70 went this route, and have been kinda more fond of the Mauser design. Specifically, because there is no need to pillar bed the front of the Mauser with its metal to metal contact between the two mating bosses.

Is there any tangible benefit to this feature by "evolving" from the Mauser to the M70 design?

More area in bearing and larger cross section of wood behind the lug in shear.

The Mauser fix, crossbolts.

06 August 2021, 03:11

montea6b

quote:
More area in bearing and larger cross section of wood behind the lug in shear.

The Mauser fix, crossbolts.

Makes sense, thanks.

06 August 2021, 04:19

gunmaker

quote:
Originally posted by montea6b:
quote:
More area in bearing and larger cross section of wood behind the lug in shear.

The Mauser fix, crossbolts.

Makes sense, thanks.

Monte
Please understand the incredible depth of experience and empirical knowledge Douggie brings to the table when it comes to stocking rifles that need crossbolts and actually travel across the pond where a client bets their life on the rifle they brought facing beasts that can and will literally stomp them into the ground.

06 August 2021, 04:23

montea6b

I get it, and wasn't trying to argue or anything...

06 August 2021, 05:57

Doug W

quote:
Originally posted by gunmaker:
Please understand the incredible depth of experience and empirical knowledge Douggie brings to the table ......

Established math and mechanics of materials aren't emotionally invested in the analysis and the determined facts.

You however are.

06 August 2021, 08:52

gunmaker

quote:
Originally posted by Doug W:
.
.
.
Oddly Mr Echol's dream to reality action from the M70 end and my receiver from the M98 end converged up in many of the same places.
.
.
.

You must have had him on speed dial imparting all your wisdom into HIS work. Show us some pics

Or..
Maybe it was just the years and years of DArcy's experience building world class rifles worthy of betting your life on coupled with a top flight machine shop willing & ABLE to do it right the first time.

I'm sure these new receivers will save DArcy countless hours spent in the pursuit of perfection remachining most every single surface of a factory Win receiver. All that time saved is a really big deal.

08 August 2021, 06:50

Kolo-Pan

Gunmaker

Are you offering your custom made bolt handles and grip caps to the retail trade. They sure look nice in the photos!!!!!!!

Also, in one of your photos it appears that you have shortened a Mauser 98 action. Neat. Could you tell us a little bit more about that.

08 August 2021, 10:46

gunmaker

I'm busy building complete custom rifles at this time. No time to manufacture parts that many consider priced beyond reason. Even though every one of those knocking prices on small run high quality custom parts is more than willing to pay more per hour for the local plumber to clear a clog than what they feel reasonable for custom gun work.

Pics of a Kurz that I worked on is a GMA action I added a thumb cut to.

Not sure what this has to do with DArcy's great new action.

08 August 2021, 19:54

Fal Grunt

James,

Sometimes folks just need a little perspective. I just had this conversation with a customer and again with a friend.

My diesel mechanic is $127/hr
My plumber is $150/hr
My accountant is $250/hr
My lawyer is $400/hr
My physical therapist is $580/hr
My doctor is $1,540/hr (my 12 minute checkup after insurance was billed at $385)

Given that Mr. Echols is far more talented than me, with decades more experience, his development work most likely took a third of the time it would take me. Will he net $50/hr? I seriously doubt it.

Every one of the LaPour bolt shrouds I have made to date have been a "loss" from a business standpoint. I doubt I net $50/hr on them. For what I have been told are "exorbitant" and "excessive" prices. Mostly from other gunmakers who want to mark my product up 30% when I do not make 30% myself.

So this is all very relevant to Mr. Echols action. At some point the custom gun industry CUSTOMERS will either catch up in terms of pricing and what they are willing to pay, or the industry will die. I sincerely hope it is a successful financial endeavor for Mr.Echols. With the number of custom actions that are successful in todays market, from Stiller to Kelbly, hopefully his will be as well.

08 August 2021, 22:07

gunmaker

quote:
Originally posted by Fal Grunt:

Every one of the LaPour bolt shrouds I have made to date have been a "loss" from a business standpoint. I doubt I net $50/hr on them. For what I have been told are "exorbitant" and "excessive" prices. Mostly from other gunmakers who want to mark my product up 30% when I do not make 30% myself.

The business models of my youth when I sold hardware and auto parts is no longer valid. Now, manufacturers & (wholesalers) can market directly to the end user world wide with a simple post on a forum. Now days the middle man like say Brownells has pricing so close between retail and dealer price it's not worth the time. Another wholesaler I use has radically different shipping pricing for retail vs dealer. Completely screwing the dealer out of any reasonable markup. As a manufacturer, selling direct is a way to cut out the middle men. The problem with this is all the time every small parts customer takes up with a one man show such as my shop. Especially on small items like one $25 09 floorplate release. By the time all questions are answered, check deposited after waiting in line at the bank and the part packaged and shipped, you're looking at a large loss of productive, billable time in the shop. Probably why I only work on complete rifle projects as of now.

Many of the custom parts in the wood & blued steel trade were born of a frustrated custom gunmaker not being able to source the parts needed to finish the complete rifle. Eg Duane and floormetals, DArcy & receivers etc. They didn't get into the manufacturing to sell to the masses. But it ends up biting them in the ass considering all the time it eats up.

09 August 2021, 00:17

Kolo-Pan

quote:
Not sure what this has to do with DArcy's great new action.

gunmaker

You posted links (advertisements ?) on this (my) thread, and the question relates to the same general theme of the thread which is the business of making custom parts and providing custom services for the trade and retail customers.

I would add, from reading numerous posts here by both gentlemen, that it is apparent that much of Mr. Echols' and Mr. Wiebe's frustration at not being able to obtain parts had a lot to do with their desire to provide their customers with very high quality work, which is a very admirable thing. They could buy parts. They just couldn't get the quality that they felt their customers deserved and had come to expect from them, so they made (or will make) their own. Obviously, you and some others do the same. Very commendable.

09 August 2021, 01:53

gunmaker

quote:
Originally posted by Kolo-Pan:
They could buy parts......

You haven't been paying attention.

quote:
Originally posted by Kolo-Pan:
it is apparent that much of Mr. Echols' and Mr. Wiebe's frustration at not being able to obtain parts

to yourself

09 August 2021, 20:12

Duane Wiebe (CG&R)

I have to kind of giggle at the "shear" cross section theory.

THe inherent design of the M-70 relies solely on the recoil lug..nothing more

The system 98 uses the recoil lug, of course, the "cheeks" give added support and if properly inletted, the action and bottom metal are literally bolted together to allow the enire front and rear walls of the box to absorb recoil forces.

In the real world. it all comes down to careful hand inletting on either action

10 August 2021, 01:13

metal

Absolutely correct Duane !!!!!!

10 August 2021, 01:21

metal

The more I think about how much time, effort, money and commitment D’Arcy has invested in making these actions the more I think it’s just bad ass!!!
Absolute legend.

10 August 2021, 02:35

Doug W

quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
I have to kind of giggle at the "shear" cross section theory.

THe inherent design of the M-70 relies solely on the recoil lug..nothing more

The system 98 uses the recoil lug, of course, the "cheeks" give added support and if properly inletted, the action and bottom metal are literally bolted together to allow the entire front and rear walls of the box to absorb recoil forces.

Only the question was not what can be done to mitigate the Mauser's small recoil lug.

It was, what is the advantage of a larger forward lug.

Mauser designed the military mauser to use crossbolts.

FN and most of the rest mass produced commercials used crossbolts even on mild calibers because they weren't going to spend hours carefully hand inletting to achieve recoil bearing in other locations.

Even the lowly Savage with it's large, forward washer recoil lug, sloppily machine bedded in punky birch doesn't require a crossbolt or have a reputation for splitting.

^Theory meets empirical proof.