The Accurate Reloading Forums
Are Gun Guys Luddites?
06 August 2012, 16:50
DoubleDonAre Gun Guys Luddites?
Biebs, don't take anything personally. It was Sunday evening fun and since Will hasn't been around for awhile....
So, anyway, when are you going to port those barrels?
Deo Vindice,
Don
Sons of Confederate Veterans Black Horse Camp #780
07 August 2012, 02:11
Todd WilliamsOf course everything I said here yesterday was in good fun and jest. Except that I really don't like the way Blaser rifles look, and my comments on the S-2's cocking device with it's auto safety stand.
But just to give example of why I can't warm up to the Blaser R8's looks, here is an example of what I think are a couple of beautiful bolt action rifles:
The Blaser may be a fine functioning rifle as that is what I continue to hear. But I just prefer the more traditional lines of these two over the R8's, nice wood and all.
By the way, these are not mine and I don't know anything about them other than the fact that the one on top is a 375H&H and the bottom a 300H&H.
07 August 2012, 02:24
Dave BushLovely rifles as well.
Dave
DRSS
Chapuis 9.3X74
Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL
Krieghoff 500/.416 NE
Krieghoff 500 NE
"Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer"
"If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition).
08 August 2012, 11:09
MichiganShooterSome are traditionalists on AR, some are not.
It seems many people are both comforted and thrilled by the past and desire goods and services that evoke it. And gunmakers catering to that group build product and create marketing that speaks to that desire.
However, on doubles rifles, I think that the preponderance of AR discussion centers around the British tradition. There are certainly functional and aesthetic reasons covered well by other posters. But a huge, usually implicit, reason is that posters here are most familiar with British aesthetics, history, and tradition. Plus, we share the English language.
And that is well and good. But while we also tend to gravitate to British traditions, we also accept some of its shortcomings and fall into insularity. For instance, like other North Americans, I live thousands of miles from the African veldt and its dangerous game requiring huge calibers. But we all live near game that could be hunted with double rifles. And those rifles get very little attention. And when they do, it is all about the British African tradition. People talk about .303 doubles and their effectiveness on kudu, but less about the .30R for black bear, elk, and caribou.
It seems that if we were to actually talk about using double rifles for the game nearest us, the discussion would be very different. And the traditions of continental European hunting would be much more useful than that of shooting rhinos a century ago. That would mean smaller calibers. That would mean learning how European game was hunted and is still hunted with double rifles. It would mean embracing scopes and red dots and the stock shapes that make the most of them. It would be attempting to learn from people who do not speak English. It would also be democratizing because most North Americans cannot hunt Africa with nearly the frequency of hunting here and because smaller doubles are significantly less expensive for the same make and quality.
But that would mean admitting to ourselves that the traditions and experiences of 19th century noblemen on safari and subalterns posted in Kenya are not very useful to us. Since we do not go out and learn other traditions to replace these notions, we are likely to be stuck on AR for the foreseeable future talking about how scopes and the stocks that complement them are abominations. And we will be spending a lot of time talking about the joys of 10 to 12-pound rifles even though bearers are thin on the ground. And we will talk about regulating loads to our painstakingly filed express sights instead of adjusting the barrels to new loads a la Merkel, Krieghoff, Browning, and others. And we will continue sighing that we cannot afford the big-bore English doubles we really need for tradition's sake because they cost as much as a car. And we will speak of far-off places where the lucky of us will spend at best several months out of our decades-long hunting careers downing game we are not even allowed to take home to eat. Those have been the traditions of Accurate Reloading, and they will continue to be its traditions.
08 August 2012, 12:19
Antlersquote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Of course everything I said here yesterday was in good fun and jest. Except that I really don't like the way Blaser rifles look, and my comments on the S-2's cocking device with it's auto safety stand.
But just to give example of why I can't warm up to the Blaser R8's looks, here is an example of what I think are a couple of beautiful bolt action rifles:
The Blaser may be a fine functioning rifle as that is what I continue to hear. But I just prefer the more traditional lines of these two over the R8's, nice wood and all.
By the way, these are not mine and I don't know anything about them other than the fact that the one on top is a 375H&H and the bottom a 300H&H.
Man, Todd. Those would sure look better it they had wooden bolt knobs.
Antlers
Double Rifle Shooters Society
Heym 450/400 3"
08 August 2012, 20:08
ShackMichiganShooter, that's a very thoughtful post. And you certainly know how to pack a lot into a sentence.
The way I would sum up "tradition" with this is, American calibers in doubles means for hunting in America. And African calibers in doubles means for African hunting. With one exception. In order to hunt your African double in America and not beat up your shoulder or go in for overkill on the shot, I believe in handloading the African calibers to lower velocities. That is, the ones that lend themselves to that, like the 450/400.
08 August 2012, 20:54
BiebsShack, good point. Just about any African DR can be made into a 45-70-like rifle with minimal handloading effort.
08 August 2012, 20:57
BiebsMichigan, very well said. I think sometimes we get too hung up on tradition, or at least what we expect it to be based on watching or reading glorified movies and books of the days of the Great White Hunter. There's been many an African hunt spoiler by a hunters insistence on using a big-caliber DR with open sights, or a monster magazine rifle that he's not familiar with using. .
09 August 2012, 02:58
Todd Williamsquote:
Originally posted by Antlers:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Of course everything I said here yesterday was in good fun and jest. Except that I really don't like the way Blaser rifles look, and my comments on the S-2's cocking device with it's auto safety stand.
But just to give example of why I can't warm up to the Blaser R8's looks, here is an example of what I think are a couple of beautiful bolt action rifles:
The Blaser may be a fine functioning rifle as that is what I continue to hear. But I just prefer the more traditional lines of these two over the R8's, nice wood and all.
By the way, these are not mine and I don't know anything about them other than the fact that the one on top is a 375H&H and the bottom a 300H&H.
Man, Todd. Those would sure look better it they had wooden bolt knobs.
09 August 2012, 03:06
Todd WilliamsThis has been my Whitetail Deer and Pig gun for the last year. All here in the good ole US of A. A scoped DR in a smaller caliber (9.3X74) using the ultra modern CEB Non-Con bullets, with a Tritium and Fiber Optic powered illuminated reticle scope. Now, does that bust the adherence to traditions or what.
Still, Blaser is just
09 August 2012, 03:13
BiebsA scoped double rifle???? Blasphemy!!! Heresy!!!
09 August 2012, 03:40
DoubleDonquote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
A scoped double rifle???? Blasphemy!!! Heresy!!!
Kinda like the Heym I got from you??
You bounced this one over the net...so....
Deo Vindice,
Don
Sons of Confederate Veterans Black Horse Camp #780
09 August 2012, 03:43
Todd Williamsquote:
Damn Pago, I though you were one of the good guys!
09 August 2012, 03:43
Todd Williamsquote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
A scoped double rifle???? Blasphemy!!! Heresy!!!
09 August 2012, 03:44
Todd WilliamsHell, I forgot to mention that is has a beavertail fore-end!
09 August 2012, 03:48
DoubleDonquote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Hell, I forgot to mention that is has a beavertail fore-end!
Todd, it's a beavertail "foreskin". Get it right!!
Deo Vindice,
Don
Sons of Confederate Veterans Black Horse Camp #780
09 August 2012, 03:51
Todd Williamsquote:
Originally posted by DoubleDon:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Hell, I forgot to mention that is has a beavertail fore-end!
Todd, it's a beavertail "foreskin". Get it right!!
Forgot! Thanks for the reminder!!
09 August 2012, 05:49
pagosawingnutHell, that's funny right there. Got you right back. As I said, If I had any feelings......
Nice comeback Todd. Not all of us are rich and can afford nice looking toys like you have. Just waiting on my Searcy Sidelock to get back and play.............
09 August 2012, 06:03
Biebsquote:
Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
Not all of us are rich and can afford nice looking toys like you have. Just waiting on my Searcy Sidelock to get back and play.............
Hey Wingnut, there are certainly no flies on a Searcy Sidelock....NICE! :-)
09 August 2012, 06:09
Dave Bushquote:
Originally posted by MichiganShooter:
Some are traditionalists on AR, some are not.
It seems many people are both comforted and thrilled by the past and desire goods and services that evoke it. And gunmakers catering to that group build product and create marketing that speaks to that desire.
However, on doubles rifles, I think that the preponderance of AR discussion centers around the British tradition. There are certainly functional and aesthetic reasons covered well by other posters. But a huge, usually implicit, reason is that posters here are most familiar with British aesthetics, history, and tradition. Plus, we share the English language.
And that is well and good. But while we also tend to gravitate to British traditions, we also accept some of its shortcomings and fall into insularity. For instance, like other North Americans, I live thousands of miles from the African veldt and its dangerous game requiring huge calibers. But we all live near game that could be hunted with double rifles. And those rifles get very little attention. And when they do, it is all about the British African tradition. People talk about .303 doubles and their effectiveness on kudu, but less about the .30R for black bear, elk, and caribou.
It seems that if we were to actually talk about using double rifles for the game nearest us, the discussion would be very different. And the traditions of continental European hunting would be much more useful than that of shooting rhinos a century ago. That would mean smaller calibers. That would mean learning how European game was hunted and is still hunted with double rifles. It would mean embracing scopes and red dots and the stock shapes that make the most of them. It would be attempting to learn from people who do not speak English. It would also be democratizing because most North Americans cannot hunt Africa with nearly the frequency of hunting here and because smaller doubles are significantly less expensive for the same make and quality.
But that would mean admitting to ourselves that the traditions and experiences of 19th century noblemen on safari and subalterns posted in Kenya are not very useful to us. Since we do not go out and learn other traditions to replace these notions, we are likely to be stuck on AR for the foreseeable future talking about how scopes and the stocks that complement them are abominations. And we will be spending a lot of time talking about the joys of 10 to 12-pound rifles even though bearers are thin on the ground. And we will talk about regulating loads to our painstakingly filed express sights instead of adjusting the barrels to new loads a la Merkel, Krieghoff, Browning, and others. And we will continue sighing that we cannot afford the big-bore English doubles we really need for tradition's sake because they cost as much as a car. And we will speak of far-off places where the lucky of us will spend at best several months out of our decades-long hunting careers downing game we are not even allowed to take home to eat. Those have been the traditions of Accurate Reloading, and they will continue to be its traditions.
Great post!
Todd, that Chapuis of yours is a beauty but damn, that scope just ruins the lines of the gun. My turn.
Trade that thing off on a bolt gun and be done with it.
Dave
DRSS
Chapuis 9.3X74
Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL
Krieghoff 500/.416 NE
Krieghoff 500 NE
"Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer"
"If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition).
09 August 2012, 06:24
Todd Williamsquote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
quote:
Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
Not all of us are rich and can afford nice looking toys like you have. Just waiting on my Searcy Sidelock to get back and play.............
Hey Wingnut, there are certainly no flies on a Searcy Sidelock....NICE! :-)
No flies at all!! Quite the contrary.
09 August 2012, 06:25
Todd Williamsquote:
Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Todd, that Chapuis of yours is a beauty but damn, that scope just ruins the lines of the gun. My turn.
Trade that thing off on a bolt gun and be done with it.
I knew that scope you get your goat!!
09 August 2012, 06:30
BiebsDave, wouldn't you say that's just a boltgun wanna-be? :-)
09 August 2012, 06:33
Dave Bushquote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
Dave, wouldn't you say that's just a boltgun wanna-be? :-)
Exactly!
Dave
DRSS
Chapuis 9.3X74
Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL
Krieghoff 500/.416 NE
Krieghoff 500 NE
"Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer"
"If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition).
09 August 2012, 07:31
Todd WilliamsYou fellers is funny!!
09 August 2012, 18:47
BlaserguyBiebs, nice guns even if they are an upgrade from 1.0
Yep this little 22 Hornet is hideous but I sure love carrying it
09 August 2012, 19:06
BiebsHey, I'm working on a K95 as we speak...cool little rifles. Very nice!
09 August 2012, 19:30
465H&HAs to the original question of this thread. Yep, guilty as charged!
465H&H
09 August 2012, 19:53
BiebsWhat was the original question? :-)
09 August 2012, 20:02
Todd Williamsquote:
Originally posted by Blaserguy:
Biebs, nice guns even if they are an upgrade from 1.0
Yep this little 22 Hornet is hideous but I sure love carrying it
OH! MY EYES!! MY EYES!!! Will I ever see again!?
09 August 2012, 20:04
Todd WilliamsActually, I do kind of like the little single shots! Except for that funky cheek piece! What's up with that? Looks like 3 pages of a book being turned. And the checkering reminds me of a 1960's M-700 ADL el cheapo (I have one!). OK, I tried to talk myself into liking it.
But I just don't!! YMMV!!
09 August 2012, 20:14
pagosawingnutquote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
quote:
Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
Not all of us are rich and can afford nice looking toys like you have. Just waiting on my Searcy Sidelock to get back and play.............
Hey Wingnut, there are certainly no flies on a Searcy Sidelock....NICE! :-)
Actually Biebs, for what I gave for that Searcy, secondhand, I might as well have stolen it. Guaranteed, it's less than Todd's bolt gun wanna be.
09 August 2012, 20:30
BiebsWow! How about some pix?
09 August 2012, 20:33
Dave BushI would love to have a K 95 but boy, they sure want a lot of money for them. In a single shot, I think the Luxus is a better deal.
Dave
DRSS
Chapuis 9.3X74
Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL
Krieghoff 500/.416 NE
Krieghoff 500 NE
"Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer"
"If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition).
09 August 2012, 20:59
ShackI've been studying the pics and I think I just got it. Scopes on doubles = airplanes flying off armored cruisers. Right?
Seriously, the best thing about scopes on doubles, it gives an excuse for claw mounts. Which are pretty cool looking...
09 August 2012, 21:11
BlaserguyThe aircraft carrier is circa 1911. I like to throw that in for reference for the good old days syndrome
09 August 2012, 21:21
pagosawingnutI'll try Biebs. Gotta see if I remember how.
Dang, you can teach an old dog new tricks.
09 August 2012, 21:26
Todd WilliamsFor the record, not only do I put scopes on doubles,
, I also used to fly airplanes off of boats!
T-2s, A-4s, and F/A-18s! Been doing strange things like that for awhile now I guess you could say!
Pago, calling me rich is the best joke on this thread so far!!
If you only knew brother! Got a couple of nice rifles and hunt Africa for sure, but the pantry has white bread, peanut butter, and jelly. Sometimes mac and cheese. Sometimes!
BTW, how is your shoulder. Can you shoot yet? I'm rehabing this damn right hand pinky finger that I broke in NZ last month. Got the stitches out last week but I'm having a lot of trouble bending it. Still very sore plus the right middle finger and left pinky were both dislocated (90 degrees) at the middle knuckles. They are both swollen and sore. I'm not sure I could even shoot a big bore right now and hang on to it! Still have some time before Zim in October but if they don't get better, I'm going to be a bolt trash 416 guy this time.
09 August 2012, 21:30
Todd Williamsquote:
Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
I'll try Biebs. Gotta see if I remember how.
Dang, you can teach an old dog new tricks.
Now THAT!!!, is a nice looking rifle. I still have a very strong desire to have Butch build a DR for me. Maybe a 500/416 if he will build that caliber. I think I remember reading that he will.
