The Accurate Reloading Forums
Double rifle malfunction question
05 September 2016, 05:11
larryshoresDouble rifle malfunction question
I have a VC something or another in 500 NE. I bought it last year. I took it on safari last year. As best I recall, it was problem free. I cleaned it upon my return. It has not been shot again until today. I have been busy as hell.
I go to the range. I fired off a few rounds with no problem. Then I went to shoot, nothing happened. I thought I had screwed up and not taken the safety off. I checked. I had indeed taken the safety off. I worked the safety back and forth a few times and tried it again. Nothing. I wondered if it was me. I took the safety off and yanked the hell out of the trigger. Nothing. Hmmmmmmmmm.......
I got this bright idea. I opened the gun and really slammed it shut. I took the safety off, pulled the trigger. BOOM!
What do you experts make out of this?
I leave Friday. I have little time to do anything.
Thanks!
05 September 2016, 05:43
TransvaalIt could be a issue with the intercepting safety sears of your VC. I assume that your VC has them. The intercepting sear could been tripped and holding the tumbler (hammer) from falling when you first tried to fire it--even with fiddling with the safety and trigger. Then with opening the DR the intercepting sear would have re-set and moved away from holding the tumbler. What I have stated above is predicated upon that you were only trying to fire one barrel and using one trigger; if you were not and were trying to get the DR to fire with either trigger, then maybe disregard what I stated above, as I doubt that both intercepting sears were tripped. They could have both been tripped if the DR had been dropped or received a jarring without you knowledge--that sounds unlikely from your descriptions of the events at the range However, whatever the case you should disassemble the DR and examine the action internals for foreign matter or a chip of wood from the stock floating around in there.
05 September 2016, 11:42
eagle27Should be simple enough to see the problem with the stock removed, but do it over a sheet in case anything falls out. You need yo know if it was/is a sliver of wood or something else preventing the internal hammer release.
If you cannot identify what caused the issue, but the issue seems to have gone away, it is sure going to make it interesting when next facing a charging animal
Hope you can find the cause.
05 September 2016, 11:57
mouse93Just a guess - action wasn't closed completely - it doesn't take much and if action isn't closed all the way rifle won't fire. Check the breech-locking parts for any obstruction and the rim on those rounds you had to slamm shut, chambers...
05 September 2016, 15:36
ZephyrSome thoughts...
#I have had a blade of grass between the action and barrel flats that kept the gun from closing.
#What ammo are you using? Perhaps rims were too thick, drop check all of your ammo before leaving.
#Doubles should be stripped and cleaned periodically, though lubricants have gotten much better it doesn't take much too gum up the works.
#Don't know how much shooting you have done prior to your pending trip perhaps a day at the range may square things away.
Good Luck, having a gun malfunction days before your departure is tough on the program..
05 September 2016, 15:49
subsailor74quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
I leave Friday. I have little time to do anything.
Thanks!
I am no expert, so I will not offer an opinion on what may be wrong with your double. However, consider this - you are taking a double rifle to hunt dangerous game. Your life may depend on your rifle functioning properly. In the little time you have left to do anything, take it to a competent gunsmith and have it checked out. Having doubts about whether your double is going to fire properly when you are inside the kill zone of a buffalo or elephant will otherwise hang over you for your entire hunt - find the time to get your rifle checked out, or use a different rifle in which you have confidence.
Be safe, and have a great hunt.
05 September 2016, 16:55
shootawayI suggest you get instructions on how to remove the stock and then check to see what the issue is.
05 September 2016, 17:21
subsailor74....and if you want to get advice from a real expert, talk to Jerome at Verney-Carron.
His E-Mail address is
"prod.l.atelier@verney-carron.fr"
and he can be reached at +33(0)477 81 01 21
05 September 2016, 18:09
larryshoresThanks Admiral!
05 September 2016, 18:29
MJinesWhen I first received my Heym .500 I experienced a somewhat similar issue. After you would shoot both barrels, when you opened the rifle, ejected the spent rounds, reloaded and closed the rifle, the left barrel would recock the right barrel would not. If you then opened the rifle, the right barrel would eject the fresh round even though the trigger had not been pulled (could not be pulled since the right barrel did not recock). Sometimes when you would hold the barrels straight up (perpendicular to the ground) you could get the right barrel to recock. I came home and tried it with snap caps. Load the snap caps, pull both triggers, open and both ejectors work but the right barrel would not recock. If you did this four or five times, eventually sometimes you could get the right barrel to recock. The rifle was sent to JJ and as I recall the issue pertained to a piece related to the safety or sear that had come loose and needed to be retightened and secured with a bit of Lock Tite (hence why when you held the rifle a certain way the loose piece would move enough to allow the rifle to recock). An easy fix. That was five years ago. I initially thought the firing pin had broken but that did not explain why the right barrel would eject a new, unfired round. Then I figured it had to be something to do with the cocking or safety mechanism. On the Heym it was easy to see that the right barrel was not recocking since you have the cocking indicators on the top of the action. I do not recall if my VC has cocking indicators, I seem to think not.
Mike
05 September 2016, 18:42
shootawayCheck to see if there is a chip of wood broken off and if all screws are tight.If that fails then it needs a smith.
05 September 2016, 18:55
The Norwegianquote:
Originally posted by MJines:
When I first received my Heym .500 I experienced a somewhat similar issue. After you would shoot both barrels, when you opened the rifle, ejected the spent rounds, reloaded and closed the rifle, the left barrel would recock the right barrel would not. If you then opened the rifle, the right barrel would eject the fresh round even though the trigger had not been pulled (could not be pulled since the right barrel did not recock). Sometimes when you would hold the barrels straight up (perpendicular to the ground) you could get the right barrel to recock. I came home and tried it with snap caps. Load the snap caps, pull both triggers, open and both ejectors work but the right barrel would not recock. If you did this four or five times, eventually sometimes you could get the right barrel to recock. The rifle was sent to JJ and as I recall the issue pertained to a piece related to the safety or sear that had come loose and needed to be retightened and secured with a bit of Lock Tite (hence why when you held the rifle a certain way the loose piece would move enough to allow the rifle to recock). An easy fix. That was five years ago. I initially thought the firing pin had broken but that did not explain why the right barrel would eject a new, unfired round. Then I figured it had to be something to do with the cocking or safety mechanism. On the Heym it was easy to see that the right barrel was not recocking since you have the cocking indicators on the top of the action. I do not recall if my VC has cocking indicators, I seem to think not.
VC does not have cocking indicators.
Morten
The more I know, the less I wonder !
05 September 2016, 18:55
The Norwegianquote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
Thanks Admiral!
Larry,
I have sent you an email.
Morten
The more I know, the less I wonder !
05 September 2016, 19:44
larryshoresI have spoken to Ken & Jerome. They gave me a few possibilities that are "easy". Frankly some of those make a lot of sense to me given that I shot this rifle a few hundred times last year and had no issue whatsoever. On the other hand, I do not profess to have a great working knowledge of doubles. In other words, I am ignorant on these matters.
Interestingly, I also heard from a blast from the past. Sam Rose. Sam is a very knowledgeable guy. I hated it when he left. I wish he would come back. Sam told me of another possibility which also makes a great deal of sense to me. While it is simple to Sam, it is more complex that the Ken/Jerome possibilities to me, considering my level of knowledge.
I am working a few hours today. I am going to to the football game tonight. What I am going to do is check the Ken/Jerome issues when I get home. I will use snap caps to see if those solve the problems. If this does not solve the problem, I am going to take it to my guns guys along with the info Sam sent me. I am NEVER personally going to take my rifle apart because I don't know what I am doing. I do not want to foul up the appearance of a beautiful rifle or perhaps worse foul up the workings of it.
It also occurs to me that this might be an ammo issue. Each and every time this happened, it happened on reduced power loads. It never happened on full power loads. If I had it to do all over again, I would log detailed information on each time this happened.
Thanks gentlemen for the help. I hope I am not repacking and taking more 416 solids.
05 September 2016, 22:05
cal pappasquote:
I am NEVER personally going to take my rifle apart because I don't know what I am doing.
Great minds think alike.
I don't even turn the screws on my doubles.
Cal
_______________________________
Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.comwww.CalPappas.blogspot.com1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________
05 September 2016, 22:47
nopride2The Admiral gave the best suggestion.
Dave
05 September 2016, 23:09
Bwana BundukiYou can take mine Larry.
Jeff
06 September 2016, 00:26
larryshoresThanks Jeff. I hope it is not necessary.
I got home from the office and got the rifle. I took it down and looked inside. There does appear to be some type of debris. I am not sure what it is. Not a lot but some debris nevertheless.
I cleaned it out. I also took a compressed air can and blew out the entire mechanism. I inspected for more debris. I could find none.
I reassembled the rifle and dry fired it 25 times (each barrel) without incident.
It seems to me the problem is solved. What do you all think?
Sam Rose gave me the idea there is possibly debris INSIDE the mechanism. After thinking about it, he might be right. Last year when I got back from Zim, I noticed a little rust under the lever. I had my gun shop remove this rust. I am suspicious that this may be the debris that I saw. In addition, as some may recall, I had a bad pad on this gun. It was tearing. The pad was replaced. I am also a bit suspicious that this may be the source of the debris.
I have little time between now and the time that I go. Given the results of my little test, do you think I should have my gunsmith disassemble and check?
This is definitely going to JJ when I get back.
I shot this thing incredibly well yesterday. I am not a paper target guy. Hitting coke cans and breaking clay pigeons off hand and off of sticks at 50 yards is pretty dam good in my book.
Thanks all!
06 September 2016, 00:34
mouse93You are good to go
06 September 2016, 01:54
RockdocHave a great hunt!
I too wish Sam would come back on here.
Safari njema, Fika Salama.
DRSS
06 September 2016, 04:13
JCS271It sounds like your rifle has resolved it's issue. I also wish Sam Rose would come back. I always enjoyed his writing and he was kind enough to give me an aperture sight for my double rifle that I use it to this day!
"The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation."
"The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln
06 September 2016, 04:37
Zephyr. Last year when I got back from Zim, I noticed a little rust under the lever. I had my gun shop remove this rust. I am suspicious that this may be the debris that I saw. In addition, as some may recall, I had a bad pad on this gun. It was tearing. The pad was replaced. I am also a bit suspicious that this may be the source of the debris.[/quote]
Did they just clean the surface rust or did they strip and clean the gun??
06 September 2016, 05:56
SliderI would have it checked by a Smith.
06 September 2016, 06:47
PeterLarry, sent you a PM.
Peter
Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
06 September 2016, 07:28
Crazy_farmerOften the simple things are the culprit and we always look past it to a deeper problem. I had a new citori O/U 12 gauge that was a great shotgun. One day out of the blue I was hunting and shot a duck. I opened and extracted the shell and then put another in shell in.
I went to close the action and it just wouldn't. I tried everything. Taking apart. Using quite a bit of force to close and just couldn't get to close. I figured it was busted internally and brought to a gunsmith who I bought it from. It took him 5 minutes with some good cleaning tools and all it was, was a little debris in the right spot that I didn't look hard enough.
Made me look pretty stupid hahaha
06 September 2016, 08:45
larryshoresI had the same thing with a Citori 20 ga.
06 September 2016, 12:33
ozhunterI would feel comfortable providing it fired well with twenty or so shots with snap caps and a handful of my hunting rounds.
06 September 2016, 19:26
larryshoresThe rifle is in its way to the gun shop for a quick check.
06 September 2016, 22:37
jorgeLet us know what the smith said, Larry. I'd be curious to see if he thinks it was indeed some debris fouling the action. j
USN (ret)
DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE
Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE
Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE
DSC Life Member
NRA Life Member
06 September 2016, 23:32
larryshoresWilco.
08 September 2016, 04:12
Brandon.GleasonHow'd this work out for you, Larry?
08 September 2016, 04:53
larryshoresThey found nothing when they opened it up. They believe my cleaning cured the problem.
08 September 2016, 05:17
Brandon.GleasonWell that's a beautiful thing, then. Hope to read of it's success soon!
08 September 2016, 23:00
larryshoresLet me clarify my last comment. There was a tiny spec of debris which they do not believe was part of the issue.
11 September 2016, 22:14
MacD37quote:
Originally posted by Crazy_farmer:
Often the simple things are the culprit and we always look past it to a deeper problem. I had a new citori O/U 12 gauge that was a great shotgun. One day out of the blue I was hunting and shot a duck. I opened and extracted the shell and then put another in shell in.
I went to close the action and it just wouldn't. I tried everything. Taking apart. Using quite a bit of force to close and just couldn't get to close. I figured it was busted internally and brought to a gunsmith who I bought it from. It took him 5 minutes with some good cleaning tools and all it was, was a little debris in the right spot that I didn't look hard enough.
Made me look pretty stupid hahaha
That is one draw back to very precise fitting in a double rifle. It takes very little to gum up the works so that it doesn't work properly. No brand is immune!
It is a good idea to have a competent double rifle smith to go inside and give a double a very good cleaning and proper lubing of the internals before leaving to go on safari. As is noted there was simply a very small bit of debris in the action that may have caused the problem but the cleaning did the trick.
....................................................................
....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982
Hands of Old Elmer Keith
17 September 2016, 15:27
larryshoresGreetings from Dande where it is lunch time and they have wifi. There has been no repeat of the issue. I have shot 2 tuskless , 2 buff and a bushbuck with the rifle. The buff were quite entertaining. I will save those details for later.
While there has been no repeat of the issue this thread was originally about, there has been another problem. I have a Docter Optik on the gun. Two days ago, I heart/lunged an elephant. I went to make a follow up shot and there was no red dot. The battery was changed just before I left . I was not happy .
17 September 2016, 16:34
Brandon.GleasonGlad to hear the rifle is working well for you, Larry. Can't wait for the rest of the details, sounds like a wonderful hunt so far. Sorry to hear about the Docter, interested to hear how this works out, as I'm looking at red dots for a 458 Lott as we speak.
25 September 2016, 11:05
eagle27At one time or another, any instrument or piece of equipment with small batteries powering it, especially the button type batteries, but not exclusively these, will suffer from apparent battery failure even with new batteries. It is an absolute must to check and clean the contacts in the battery compartment on a regular basis to ensure 100% reliability (apart from when the battery actually goes flat).
With button, AA, and AAA low voltage batteries it is recommended not to touch the terminals with bare fingers to avoid contaminating the terminal surfaces. Clean the terminals with a dry tissue and handle by the barrel, or the edges for button batteries, when inserting batteries into instruments.
Larry, will be good to hear what you find with your Docter Optik.
25 September 2016, 17:17
larryshoresI hope to get both rifles down to the gun shop this coming week. I cannot get one of the screws out. I am hoping they can and potentially will have an answer.
Read my report on the hunt. Needless to say, this scared the hell out of me. It could have been disastrous. Fortunately, it was not.
26 September 2016, 03:08
ozhunterquote:
There has been no repeat of there has been another problem. I have a Docter Optik on the gun. Two days ago, I heart/lunged an elephant. I went to make a follow up shot and there was no red dot. The battery was changed just before I left . I was not happy .
Those infernal contraptions
