Over and Under DR

06 April 2006, 21:21

zimbabwe

I have owned about an equal number of O/U and SxS guns in the last 50 years. I find I shoot the O/U 's better than the SxS's both in Rifles and shotguns. I am however a mediocre shotgun shot at best. I have NO problems with rifles. I don't know what it is about double guns but I just don't shoot them well. Don't know if it's because of the sight of 2 barrels or exactly what but a FACT it is with ME. I break about 20% more clay targets with an O/U than with a SxS. The O/U does require a greater break to reload but with ejectors I have been able to get off 3rd shots on a covey rise and that should be fast enough. I have never owned an O/U of greater caliber than 9.3x74R so can't really speak to that aspect. An O/U CARRIES better to me than a SxS. I don't like splinter forearms and find SxS's less comfortable to handle. These are all PERSONAL opinions and have absolutely nothing to do with the suitability of either style for hunting DG. I personally see NO drawbacks to O/U's for DG rifles.

06 April 2006, 22:49

Fjold

quote:
Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
I have heard very sound reasons to go with a SxS configuration for a DG rifle. I have heard NO advantage for O/U DG rifle.

Wouldn't the fact that the barrels are on the centerline of the action make it more resistant to shooting "off face"? If you always shoot the bottom barrel first wouldn't that keep it solid for longer?

07 April 2006, 02:44

BigFiveJack

Men I am NOT speaking from experience, just what I have heard and read.

For DG the wider sight plane of a SxS under a large charging beast's body/head is quicker to put on point, (because it's just bigger in the shooters view) and then fire, maybe saving yourself from injury/death.

I am talking a MICRO-SECOND, but maybe that's all that matters.

The well practiced rifleman should be able to complete a reload quicker on a SxS due to the smaller angle the the SxS opens to, then fire shots 3 and 4 on second charging beast.

Again, a MICRO-SECOND difference, again maybe it makes a difference.

In NON DG calibers I prefer O/U, my "eye" sees them as more stately, elegant, beautiful.

If cost did not matter, for bird hunting I'd pick the BOSS & CO O/U shotgun as the MOST BEAUTIFUL long gun ever designed.

All just my opinion.

07 April 2006, 03:06

CBNHNTR

One thing to remember is that when we speak of the sighting process between rifles and shotguns we are talking apples and oranges.

On a shotgun ( leaving our turkey hunting ) when you are trying to hit a target you NEVER look down the rib. You must concentrate on the target and swing through. tHence the wide sight plane of a SXS is not an advantage.

07 April 2006, 08:42

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by Dr B:
I would be intrested in hearing what those reasons are.

There are several reasons, and this is the reason I've broken up your post for better clarefication

quote:
In shotguns the O/U has replaced most of the SXS guns, Except people who just want to be traditional. The sight plane on a O/U is better for moving targets, with better balace, and a quicker second shot, ie. less torque and straighter recoil when fired.

The O/U shotgun has indeed replaced the S/S shotgun in the double field, but if that is any indication of it being better, then it would seem the pump, and simi-auto are the best that money can buy, because they out number O/Us ten to 0ne!

Compareing a shotgun of any type to a double rifle of any type is simply compareing apples, to oranges. A shotgun, and a double rifle are used in intirely different manners. One doesn't look at sights on the shotgun for clays, or flying birds, and running rabbits, but shoots instinctively, in all cases. Addtionally the pattern of any shotgun, is large, allows one to be considerably off target, and still make a kill. This is not the case with a double rifle, be it S/S, or O/U, so no valid comparison can be made between the two.

The ballance is no better with an O/U, than with a S/S. That depends on how well made the gun is, not the type.

The only way an O/U gets off a faster second shot than a S/S is, if it is fitted with a single trigger, and the S/S has doubles. The single trigger is something that is a NO-NO on a double rifle that is intended for use on dangerous game. The reason for the double rifle, in the first place, is, it is two completely indipendant single shot rifles on the same stock. The single trigger takes that definition away from that reliability. If the trigger fails in any way, you are left with a 10 lb club, instead of a rifle. This is another mark against the O/U double rifle, because most are single trigger rifles. Also, most O/U double rifle can only fire the top barrel after the lower barrel has been fired, because the top lock is cocked by the recoil of the bottom barrel being fired. If the trigger is selective, it presents another complication to deal with, in tight spots with dangerous game. SO, unless both are fitted with double triggers,and both barrels are cocked when the gun is broken open, the comparison, again, isn't valid.

The one place where you have a valid point is, with the straighter recoil, as far as not flipping to one side then the other. However, the lower barrel recoils differently from the upper barrel on an O/U, just the same as it does on a S/S. Any gun with one barrel tied to the other, will all ways recoil away from the other barrel. In the case of the O/U, they both recoil up, and back, but the bottom barrel recoils almost straight back, with little barrel rise, being in line with the vertical, and horrizonal CG of the gun. The top barrel, however, is quite a bit above the horrizonal CG, hence it's rise is far more than that of the bottom barrel.

quote:
The primary reason I'm intrested in a O/U I've been shooting a Citori for over twenty years and tens of thousands or rounds.

This is a valid reason for useing the O/U configuration, but unless the other drawbacks are eleminated, (single trigger, recoil cocked top barrel) this choice could get you or some one in your party stomped. There is a reason one sees very few O/U double rifle chambered for cartridges larger that 9.3X74R. The recoil of an O/U double rifle chambered for large bore cartridges, has a brutal recoil from that top barrel, far more felt recoil that with a proper S/S, in the same chambering.

quote:
I've heard the SXS is faster to load, but if you you can make btter use of first two shots then speed of reloading becomes secondary.

Dr B

The key word here is "IF"!

The best two shots, ever fired on a Cape Buffalo, is no guarintee you will put him down,unless the brain or spine is hit, and in fact,it isn't even likely. If you intend going into the weeds with a wounded lion, or Buffalo with a double rifle, you better not depend on the first two shots doing the trick, and the time it takes to reload, and get back on target may just drag your nuts out of the fire! My friend, when it comes the big bite-backs, reloading is NEVER SECONDARY!

07 April 2006, 09:29

Dr B

MacD37
If you check out the Heym at the begining of the thread you will see what I'm thinking of.
470 NE with a single trigger.

You are correct that shooting a shot gun is diffrent than sooting a rifle. The ptteren is larger most of the time, but I would say that when I shooting 8 station Low house. My shot gun pattern is only 3-4 in wide, the clay much smaller than the vitals of any DG and is about the size of a brain. The clay is also moving more that twice as fast as a Lepord or Lion on there best day, and 4-5 times as fast as a elphant or Buff.

I have no problem with a SXS rifle or shotgun, in fact I looking for a SXS 28ga for Quail, (I'm getting to old to carry a 12 ga behind dogs all day). It's just that for the past 20 or so years I have used the same citori for every thing from ducks to doves to Skeet, and I think it would be crazy to try to learn new style at this point. Also I don't even have to look down to load anymore.
Dr B

07 April 2006, 16:27

Mike_Dettorre

I would actually like to see some do timed tests of the difference in speed of reloading a SxS DR vs an O/U DR...

The difference in downward movement of the left hand (rh shooter) on the bbls is about 5 inches (IIRC) to affect the required opening of the breach.

So an interesting test would be to have a shooter practice a little with both an O/U and a SxS...and then run a timed test to get off three shots on targets at say 30, 20, and 5 yds.

I believe the results will be no consistent superiority of the SxS config

Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.

What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.

07 April 2006, 18:08

CBNHNTR

Setting aside the SXS vs. O/U question a moment. Why would you choose a two-barreled gun with only one trigger in a dangerous game rifle?

A single trigger is the opposite of the KISS principle most people choose DR's for in the first place.

A single trigger whether inertia set or mechanically set is a rather complex mechanism, if something goes wrong; you are left with a single shot.

While I think a lot of the O/U vs. SXS arguments are based on nostalgia, the issue of single trigger vs. double trigger in a DG rifle (in whatever configuration) is a no brainier.

07 April 2006, 20:09

zimbabwe

I have shot O/U and S/S single trigger shotguns for over 40 years and can only remember one single malfunction with a Fox Mdl B with inertia trigger. It would be interesting to see the failure rate of the literally hundreds of thousands of skeet guns used in the US and worldwide. Then compare to the failure rate of double rifles. Only then can such sweeping statements be made about the superiority of double triggers. Most all the hype about doubles is primarily generated by nostalgia. Certainly they have the advantage of two quick shots but past that I really don't see much but tradition and nostalgia. As to their use for so many years I believe that is because they were invented prior to repeating rifles because the technology was not present to build repeaters. The only answer to two quick shots was 2 barrels.

07 April 2006, 20:33

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by Dr B:
MacD37
If you check out the Heym at the begining of the thread you will see what I'm thinking of.
470 NE with a single trigger.

If you have to use an O/U the Heym is a fine choice, but I'd reccomend double triggers, and non-auto safety.

quote:
You are correct that shooting a shot gun is diffrent than sooting a rifle. The ptteren is larger most of the time, but I would say that when I shooting 8 station Low house. My shot gun pattern is only 3-4 in wide,

That is the pattern of one barrel, and the pattern for one barrel of a 470NE is .474"! A four ince pattern can be four inches off in any dirrection, which makes that pattern 8" for one shot, and still catch a piece of that clay. In a charge on a buffalo, if every shot is only withing 8" of point of aim, you may need to be reloading a couple of times.

quote:
the clay much smaller than the vitals of any DG and is about the size of a brain. The clay is also moving more that twice as fast as a Lepord or Lion on there best day, and 4-5 times as fast as a elphant or Buff.

You are absolutely correct! However, that clay isn't about to stick a horn up your butt, if you miss. In a close charge, the "vitals" will do you no good, the brain or spine is the only thing that will absolutely stop him. I fear, you will not shoot as cool on a mad buff, or lion, as you do on a clay bird course!

quote:
I have no problem with a SXS rifle or shotgun, in fact I looking for a SXS 28ga for Quail, (I'm getting to old to carry a 12 ga behind dogs all day). It's just that for the past 20 or so years I have used the same citori for every thing from ducks to doves to Skeet, and I think it would be crazy to try to learn new style at this point. Also I don't even have to look down to load anymore.
Dr B

I understand your wanting an O/U double rifle, since you are so used to them, but the O/U double rifle needs to be set up differently than a shotgun. You need to learn to use double triggers, and a manual safety. You say you are getting too old to carry a 12 ga behind dogs all day, then, my friend you will not be happy with carrying a 11 lb 470NE double rifle all day, in 105 Degs F. I'm 69 yrs old, and I still carry an 11 lb double rifle all day, and can shoot it when the time comes.
It is your money, and your butt on the line, SO, I say do as it suits you, but you did ask the question, and IMO, if you use the O/U you should buy it with double trigger. These are cocked by the breaking of the rifle to load, so that either trigger will work first, or by it's self if you get a dud on the first trigger. This will leave you with a single shot, rather than a heavy club.

Quote by CBNHNTR,

quote:
A single trigger whether inertia set or mechanically set is a rather complex mechanism, if something goes wrong; you are left with a single shot.

Is incorrect! The single trigger breaking will leave you with a shot at all, especially if the top barrel is cocked by the recoil of the lower barrel being fired. Most O/U rifles, and shotguns, with single triggers, are made that way. If you get a miss fire with the lower barrel you are out of business, barring bump starting the top barrel. The Idea of being able to fire either barrel is, while carrying a double, most load a soft point in the right barrel, and a solid in the other. With double triggers this gives you a choice of load for your first shot. This is taken away if one uses any kind of single trigger other than selective. That is if the trigger doesn't break. What I mean by break is not just failing to change barrels but BREAK. If a trigger, or anything in a double trigger lock system breaks, the other trigger is not dependant on anything in the other lock, and will opperate fine!

Mike_Dettorre

quote:
The difference in downward movement of the left hand (rh shooter) on the bbls is about 5 inches (IIRC) to affect the required opening of the breach.

So an interesting test would be to have a shooter practice a little with both an O/U and a SxS...and then run a timed test to get off three shots on targets at say 30, 20, and 5 yds.

I believe the results will be no consistent superiority of the SxS config

Mike

Mike has some valid ideas on this, but it isn't just the opening distance that henders fast reloads in the O/U! Most are set up with double Kersten top locks, which stick out past the top barrel chamber on both sides, and the fact that one barrel is above the other requires more dexterity to to load similtaineously that with a S/S. add these two draw-backs to the wider opening, "AND" closeing, with a mad buff bearing down on you, and the fumble factor becomes quite opressive!

I have both kinds of double rifles, and I like them both, but the S/S is a far better configuration, when you are going into the weeds with a bite back. My DGR doubles are S/S, and my deer hunting doubles are of both configurations! It is simply my opinion, that if one is to spend $14K, to $16K on a DGR double rifle,in the O/U configuration I would, at least, have it set up like a real DGR, and not a sporting clays shotgun!

07 April 2006, 20:53

Mike_Dettorre

MAC,

You got a photo anywhere of a dbl Kersten top lock

Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.

07 April 2006, 21:22

CBNHNTR

Mike,

On single trigger guns both hammers cock on opening the breach. There is a toggle that will activate the hammer block mechanism. This toggle can be either selective or non selective.

On ineria triggers ( like the Citori ) the toggle is moved from one hammer to the other by the recoil of the first shot. You can also do this by rapping the gun stock down against a hard surface.

On mechanincal triggers, the toggle is moved by pulling the trigger. The gun does not need to fire for the toggle to move to the next hammer you just need to pull the trigger.

That is why on mechanical trigger gun if you have a miss fire on the first round you can still fire the second barrel by pulling the trigger again.

I do a lot of clay shooting and non firing of the first round is not uncommon. Unsually this is caused by bad ammo not a mechanical problem with the gun but it does happen more often than you think.

This is why most dedicated clay guns have mechanical triggers and non automatic safeties.

Less things to go wrong.

08 April 2006, 00:04

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
MAC,

You got a photo anywhere of a dbl Kersten top lock

Yeh, scroll back up to the picture of the open breech of the Heym!

08 April 2006, 00:32

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I have shot O/U and S/S single trigger shotguns for over 40 years and can only remember one single malfunction with a Fox Mdl B with inertia trigger. It would be interesting to see the failure rate of the literally hundreds of thousands of skeet guns used in the US and worldwide. Then compare to the failure rate of double rifles. Only then can such sweeping statements be made about the superiority of double triggers. Most all the hype about doubles is primarily generated by nostalgia. Certainly they have the advantage of two quick shots but past that I really don't see much but tradition and nostalgia. As to their use for so many years I believe that is because they were invented prior to repeating rifles because the technology was not present to build repeaters. The only answer to two quick shots was 2 barrels.

Zim, I agree if a rifle is cared for the failiers are rare! Clay target guns are amoung the most cared for, guns on the planet, and rarely, if ever go into the African dust, and thorn, as do DGR double rifles. Still, the fact is, if the trigger does fail, you are out of business, and that can be avoided by simply haveing two indipendent triggers. One failier on a clay target field, means little, but one failier in the tight spot, where you have no extra time to do anything, that failier, may mean your life! You know as well as I do, Murphy is about, when you need him the least, and if it can go wrong, it will go wrong.

Anyway, right or wrong those are my reasons for useing the rifles I do. I have found that anything can go south, but there are things that are less likely to fail. I simply see no value in useing something that is more prone to fail, when one has a choice!

Make mine a S/S with double triggers, and a manual safety. I can live with ejectors, but mine are disconected on my DGR doubles.

08 April 2006, 04:51

Mike_Dettorre

Mac,

heck that make sit better...kinda like loading guides for a gut like me...

Mac,

You in TX...I go there on business alot...I'll got to the range pay for the ammo...we can run some tests with a stop watch and put this issue to rest...and then I buy the Modelo Negros

Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.