Dave,

You're quite right, it is up the individual how he spends his money........ but if you haven't seen or can't tell the difference between the quality a double such as a Searcy, Heym or Kreighoff etc and something like a H&H, Westley Richards or even something like a William Evans, then you've either seen very few best quality English doubles or you haven't looked closely.

Believe me, the former are good rifles but the latter are works of art.

As to the quality of the new Rigby Rifles, I haven't seen one yet but knowing who the engraver is and maybe a little bit more, I reckon they're gonna be a very good product......... but as I and others have said previously, time will tell.

Mr. bush sir, you are comparing a dodge viper to a ferrari. besides being sportscars there are no comparison between the two makes, nor do they intend to do so.

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
Mr. bush sir, you are comparing a dodge viper to a ferrari. besides being sportscars there are no comparison between the two makes, nor do they intend to do so.

best

peter

Peter, Peter, Peter, what am I going to do with you? Everytime we start comparing doubles someone makes this silly car anology. A car weighs thousands of pounds, has thousands of parts as well as computer controlled gear and electrical components. A double rifle weighs ten pounds and bascially consists of two barrels, an action, two triggers and two pieces of wood. The trick is getting the barrels to shoot to regulation but I told you... I SURRENDER! It's your money and you have to spend it your way. If you think that a Holland & Holland round action sidelock if worth $35,000 more than a Heym, hey man, have at it! Bespoke, bespoke, bespoke...

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
Mr. bush sir, you are comparing a dodge viper to a ferrari. besides being sportscars there are no comparison between the two makes, nor do they intend to do so.

best

peter

Peter, Peter, Peter, what am I going to do with you? Everytime we start comparing doubles someone makes this silly car anology. A car weighs thousands of pounds, has thousands of parts as well as computer controlled gear and electrical components. A double rifle weighs ten pounds and bascially consists of two barrels, an action, two triggers and two pieces of wood. The trick is getting the barrels to shoot to regulation but I told you... I SURRENDER! It's your money and you have to spend it your way. If you think that a Holland & Holland round action sidelock if worth $35,000 more than a Heym, hey man, have at it! Bespoke, bespoke, bespoke...

Peter is talking about that most elusive, ineffable quality, class.

It is a quality that iether something has or it doesn't.

Whilst concepts like "quality" and "class" are essentially subjective, it is remarkable how great the consensus is such objects are put to the test.

In other words, hold yer horses there Dave, how can you damn something nobody has seen yet? It would be as unreasonable as claiming that it is they are the best thing since sliced bread!

I'll get some photo's and take some vastly experienced friends along with me when I visit and get back to you.

The you can call me a madman, Ok?

I would have to cnclude that the prices I'm seeing here are very, very low for this class of rifle.

May I ask where the base actions are barrels are being sourced? I mention this as I am well aware of the expenses associated with producing "London Best" guns. 75K US for a rising bite SLE is almost unimaginable.

Chopper lump barrels, sidelock action, rising bite, ejectors, engraved, shot & regulated....75K US....Hmmm, I'm a bit skeptical.

However in the spirit of entrepreneurialship I give a double thumbs-up for the effort!

Can't wait to see the finished products!

Best of luck!

JW

for your viewing pleasure, gentlemen.



best regards

Peter A. Nerving
(gunmaker)
John Rigby & Co. Ltd.
London

quote:

May I ask where the base actions are barrels are being sourced? I mention this as I am well aware of the expenses associated with producing "London Best" guns. 75K US for a rising bite SLE is almost unimaginable.

Best of luck!

JW

on the A-class and the bestgun we are making them ourselfs, we off course rely on cnc machines to bring us a long way towards the finished product, but i think it was jeffery that said that a best gun is only the last three strikes with the file.

the B and C-class are made with some outsoursed parts, to make sure that we can keep the prices in a level, where we think there also is a market, for nicely made english double rifles and shotguns.

Best Regards

Peter A. Nerving

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:

quote:

May I ask where the base actions are barrels are being sourced? I mention this as I am well aware of the expenses associated with producing "London Best" guns. 75K US for a rising bite SLE is almost unimaginable.

Best of luck!

JW

on the A-class and the bestgun we are making them ourselfs, we off course rely on cnc machines to bring us a long way towards the finished product, but i think it was jeffery that said that a best gun is only the last three strikes with the file.

the B and C-class are made with some outsoursed parts, to make sure that we can keep the prices in a level, where we think there also is a market, for nicely made english double rifles and shotguns.

Best Regards

Peter A. Nerving

Peter:

Could you be more specific? What parts are "outsourced" and from where?

quote:

Originally posted by bearhunter762:
No dave,the definition of a shitty gun is a 13 pound name merkel with a 'rigby'name stamped on it.

Bearhunter762, IMO the only thing good about the Cal Rigby is the fact that it is made on a Merkel action, and they would have been better off if they had used Merkel barrels as well! May I ask where did you ever see a 13 pound Merkel? The heaviest one I've ever seen was an 11.2 pound 470NE,with a murcury recoild damper in the stock, and the 500NE which is the largest double they make is actually lighter than the 470NE rifle by 5 oz.

If both rifles were the same price I'd rather have the Merkel!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
You guys are just amazing...

An American firm buys the company and moves it to California. They make fine guns but you won't buy one. Someone starts building them again in London and you are all convinced of it's quality and are ready to buy a "real" Rigby before you have even seen one. They will sell better if that jack up the price so they can really take advantage of you. If they stamped the London label on it you guys would buy it even if it was the shittiest double ever.

Same goes for Model 70's built before 1964 and those built in South Carolina now. Same gun only better built now.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:

quote:

May I ask where the base actions are barrels are being sourced? I mention this as I am well aware of the expenses associated with producing "London Best" guns. 75K US for a rising bite SLE is almost unimaginable.

Best of luck!

JW

on the A-class and the bestgun we are making them ourselfs, we off course rely on cnc machines to bring us a long way towards the finished product, but i think it was jeffery that said that a best gun is only the last three strikes with the file.

the B and C-class are made with some outsoursed parts, to make sure that we can keep the prices in a level, where we think there also is a market, for nicely made english double rifles and shotguns.

Best Regards

Peter A. Nerving

Peter:

Could you be more specific? What parts are "outsourced" and from where?

Dave,

Does it really matter? Most parts are outsourced now days. I know FAMARS sources to some very fine makers in Italy and England. Some spanish makers have been known to source to some english makers from time to time.

I know for a fact a large number of makers in both Italy and England use barrels From Ferlach Austria, (mainly Hambrush). This is a global world and to keep prices in check source to the guys that do it best!

Ed

quote:

us

Mac i was refering to the fact that the mexican rigbys had a tendancy to be heavy for caliber.I agree that the merkel was a bettr gun and cheaper.

quote:

Same goes for Model 70's built before 1964 and those built in South Carolina now. Same gun only better built now.

That doesn't apply to British vs California Rigbys.
--------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

This is the best thing since sliced bread, as far as I'm concerned. What the California guys did to the oldest name in English gunmaking was shocking. The guns made by them that I saw were no better than an off-the-shelf Krieghoff or Blaser, and in one memorable instance, probaly much worse. The stock was an abomination and the overall fit and finish of the sights and metalwork left just about everything to be desired. In addition, it was the heaviest .470 ever made by man. It wasn't worthy of the Rigby name in any way whatsoever.

This is just my opinion, but the California "Rigby's" will go down as the worst rifles ever that couldn't even be saved despite the best efforts of even some of the best-known gunwriters of the day. They are perfect examples of bad taste and mediocre gunmaking, and I'm struggling not to use stronger words here.

All the best to the new makers (owners?) in England.

thank you for the vote of confidence.

we do not make screws and springs in house any more.

best regards

Peter A. Nerving

I think you have an unrealistic view of how the British/European gun trade works, Dave. Holland, Purdey, and many others don't even do their own blacking and case-hardening in house. They send it out to specialists - Johnson's and St. Ledger's, the best in the world at those tasks. Better quality than they can achieve in house, and cheaper. Last I heard, Hambrusch (Austria) was still one of the primary suppliers of chopper-lump barrel blanks. He also supplies a variety of milled actions to the trade. His CNC is programmed for a number of different actions, including the classic Webley screw-grip. Still chisel and file work to be done, but saves the gunmaker time and money, and no quality is sacrificed. Doesn't make sense to do things in house that can be done more efficiently to an equal or higher standard of quality by specialists in the trade.
---------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
I think you have an unrealistic view of how the British/European gun trade works, Dave. Holland, Purdey, and many others don't even do their own blacking and case-hardening in house. They send it out to specialists - Johnson's and St. Ledger's, the best in the world at those tasks. Better quality than they can achieve in house, and cheaper. Last I heard, Hambrusch (Austria) was still one of the primary suppliers of chopper-lump barrel blanks. He also supplies a variety of milled actions to the trade. His CNC is programmed for a number of different actions, including the classic Webley screw-grip. Still chisel and file work to be done, but saves the gunmaker time and money, and no quality is sacrificed. Doesn't make sense to do things in house that can be done more efficiently to an equal or higher standard of quality by specialists in the trade.
---------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

505Ed and 400 Nitro Express:

Guys, I understand but when I suggested to Peter that very few makers like Hollland & Holland make their rifles from the ground up anymore, he wanted to bet me. You are both correct that most guns today are made "in the trade", an action from one place, barrels from another, etc. That's exactly the way that the Geoff Miller was doing it with Merkel actions. I am just trying to pin Peter down as to specifically who is making what for his "Rigby". He says only screws and springs. I was born at night, just not last night.

Dave,

I personally don't think it'd be appropriate for him to divulge that kind of info to any third party, let aone to a public forum.

I've absolutely no doubt that an awful lot of people in the gun trade would like to know the whys and wherefores of the new business and I'm equally certain it would be a mistake for Peter if he played into their hands by divulging that kind of information.

As has been said, time will tell, or to put it another way, the product will speak for itself.

Dave,
From what I have garnered through my research on Jeffery doubles rifles, is that very few if any of the "Named" Houses made their "own" rifles. They most likely bought from the Birmingham makers "To Order" when buyer placed an order.

I guess my next question is, Do you think that London Rigby is using the same actions that Pasa Robles Rigby is using? That is what you are driving at here, isn't it?

Even David McKay Brown uses a supplier for his Chopper Lump Barrels! Small operation can't afford to be in the "From the Ground Up" rifle making business.

I have no problem with that, as long as the finished product is beautiful and functional!

Just my opine!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Dave,

I personally don't think it'd be appropriate for him to divulge that kind of info to any third party, let aone to a public forum.

I've absolutely no doubt that an awful lot of people in the gun trade would like to know the whys and wherefores of the new business and I'm equally certain it would be a mistake for Peter if he played into their hands by divulging that kind of information.

As has been said, time will tell, or to put it another way, the product will speak for itself.

Steve, you have got to be kidding me. You think it is not appropriate to ask who is building his actions

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Dave,

I personally don't think it'd be appropriate for him to divulge that kind of info to any third party, let aone to a public forum.

I've absolutely no doubt that an awful lot of people in the gun trade would like to know the whys and wherefores of the new business and I'm equally certain it would be a mistake for Peter if he played into their hands by divulging that kind of information.

As has been said, time will tell, or to put it another way, the product will speak for itself.

Steve, you have got to be kidding me. You think it is not appropriate to ask who is building his actions

Dave,

Why do you care where his actions come from?
It is pretty clear that you won't be buying one of his rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
I think you have an unrealistic view of how the British/European gun trade works, Dave. Holland, Purdey, and many others don't even do their own blacking and case-hardening in house. They send it out to specialists - Johnson's and St. Ledger's, the best in the world at those tasks. Better quality than they can achieve in house, and cheaper. Last I heard, Hambrusch (Austria) was still one of the primary suppliers of chopper-lump barrel blanks. He also supplies a variety of milled actions to the trade. His CNC is programmed for a number of different actions, including the classic Webley screw-grip. Still chisel and file work to be done, but saves the gunmaker time and money, and no quality is sacrificed. Doesn't make sense to do things in house that can be done more efficiently to an equal or higher standard of quality by specialists in the trade.
---------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

505Ed and 400 Nitro Express:

Guys, I understand but when I suggested to Peter that very few makers like Hollland & Holland make their rifles from the ground up anymore, he wanted to bet me. You are both correct that most guns today are made "in the trade", an action from one place, barrels from another, etc. That's exactly the way that the Geoff Miller was doing it with Merkel actions. I am just trying to pin Peter down as to specifically who is making what for his "Rigby". He says only screws and springs. I was born at night, just not last night.

i want to clarify that we do not use merkel actions.

the rigby rising bite is produced and finished in london.

best regards

peter

Dave

That's correct. Look at any of the bespoke gun and rifle makers and non of them divulge that sort of info to the general public, so why should you expect Rigbys to?

Most (if not all) bespoke English gun and rifle makers use outworkers but they like to be very discreet about who uses who etc.

About the only info they voluntarily give is the name of the engraver and they only do that because it's the way the engravers want it.

ADDED

Look at it another way, if you were a wholesaler, would you tell you competitors where you'd found a great deal on a great product, or would you keep it to yourself and continue a monopoly that made you money?

Just a source of information here is a page from the Jeffery Day Book. Note the source. Almost all were Leonard made rifles. Not just in the white unfinished barrels and actions, rather complete stocked rifles.

http://www.hollandandholland.c...uns/998989891148.htm

Steve,

I agree with you in part. Take a look at the link posted above...

...One heck of a nice rifle - very English looking for an Italian gun.

Those actions from A&S have an excellent reputation, so do the P&V offerings. I was hoping that Peter & Co. would make some of their offerings based on these and improve appearances (read: More English looking).

What I didn't want to hear is that the barrels and actions wre coming from Turkey / Russia. Those actions are not on par with that of the Italian makers, or the Spanish for that matter.

Again, I go back to price, price, price.

I will take your position and let the products do the talikng!

Peter, I hope you can make this dream a reality - go man!

Jeff

When are they expecting said rifles to hit the market? January in time for the shows?

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

505Ed and 400 Nitro Express:

Guys, I understand but when I suggested to Peter that very few makers like Hollland & Holland make their rifles from the ground up anymore, he wanted to bet me.

YOU wanted to bet HIM. And you'd have lost. You were wrong about Holland to begin with. Further, there are a lot of gunmakers that do as much in house as Holland does.

Your statement was:

quote:

I would be willing to bet that if this new company does produce a gun it will be with German steel amd it will be made "in the trade".

That's the bet that Peter offered to accept, and rightfully so.

quote:

You are both correct that most guns today are made "in the trade",

I don't see where 505Ed said that, and I certainly didn't because, with respect to the type we're discussing, it isn't true.

The term "made in the trade" has a quite specific meaning, and this:

quote:

an action from one place, barrels from another, etc. That's exactly the way that the Geoff Miller was doing it with Merkel actions.

...is most certainly not it. You offered a bet that Peter's guns would turn out to be trade built without even knowing what the words mean.

It's quite clear that your purpose is to cast aspersion on something you don't understand, and I suppose that's your prerogative. However, if you wish your thinly disguised barbs to have any credibility, you might want to obtain some basic knowledge of the subject matter, especially before you start tossing out bets.

quote:

I was born at night, just not last night.

Don't worry. It doesn't show.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro Express:

Thank you for your comments and suggestions. Only time will tell if your insight is correct.

Good luck and good hunting!

The future of anything has nothing to do with 400NE's comments.

quote:

Only time will tell if your insight is correct

Cheers
Tinker

Dave

You wouldn't happen to own a California Rigby with those glued on barrels and apprentice level engraving would you? Or have you just bought into the paid for advertising put out in articles by a well known, and locally favourite, gun writer about the quality of the the Miller rifles?

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:
Dave

You wouldn't happen to own a California Rigby with those glued on barrels and apprentice level engraving would you? Or have you just bought into the paid for advertising put out in articles by a well known, and locally favourite, gun writer about the quality of the the Miller rifles?

Nope but I have to confess, I think Geoff Miller is kinda getting screwed here.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:
Dave

You wouldn't happen to own a California Rigby with those glued on barrels and apprentice level engraving would you? Or have you just bought into the paid for advertising put out in articles by a well known, and locally favourite, gun writer about the quality of the the Miller rifles?

Nope but I have to confess, I think Geoff Miller is kinda getting screwed here.

How so?

He has done more for making London Rigby's valuable than Rigby ever did for themselves. By making a substandard (by Rigby standards) firearm he has done everything to himself. He evidently felt he could sell anything he wanted based on the 300 year history of Rigby. He was wrong. He still needed to build a quality product. He hasn't.

Butch Searcy started about the same time as Miller. He originally made a God-awful ugly club of a rifle but over over the years he learned to make a pretty decent rifle that looks nice, handles well and is worth the money.

Geoff Miller should have just continued to sell his Rogue River Rifles under their original badge and not tried to sell them under the Rigby badge.

quote:

Nope but I have to confess, I think Geoff Miller is kinda getting screwed here.

OK, I can understand where you're coming from there.

On the other hand, look back at the posts on this string from folks familiar with both pre- and post-1997 Rigbys. It's obvious that the subject of the post-97 guns is a lightning rod. The British Rigbys had the kind of quality that entrenches that kind of loyalty, and made the name one of the grandest in the trade, while the perjorative "Mexican Rigby" seems to have stuck to the Paso Robles guns. It's unfortunate US management didn't take a different tack.

I'll put it this way. I had the same high hopes for the new Rigby team in 1997 that I have for the new Rigby UK team today. Hope springs eternal.
---------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:
Dave

You wouldn't happen to own a California Rigby with those glued on barrels and apprentice level engraving would you? Or have you just bought into the paid for advertising put out in articles by a well known, and locally favourite, gun writer about the quality of the the Miller rifles?

Nope but I have to confess, I think Geoff Miller is kinda getting screwed here.

On what basis ?

If he didn't make sure all the i's were dotted and t's crossed when
he bought whatever he bought, then that's his fault. If he couldn't
make sure that the name / trademark etc were secure, why blame someone
else.


I will agree with the poster above who said this
"He has done more for making London Rigby's valuable than Rigby ever did for themselves."

I have to thank Geoff Miller for that, he did a wonderful job of it as well.

"He has done more for making London Rigby's valuable than Rigby ever did for themselves."

I have to thank Geoff Miller for that, he did a wonderful job of it as well.[/QUOTE]


Now that's subtle.

Von Gruff.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I personally don't think it'd be appropriate for him to divulge that kind of info to any third party, let aone to a public forum.

I've absolutely no doubt that an awful lot of people in the gun trade would like to know the whys and wherefores of the new business and I'm equally certain it would be a mistake for Peter if he played into their hands by divulging that kind of information.

As has been said, time will tell, or to put it another way, the product will speak for itself.

Steve,

Absolutely right.

Rigby of London has not even had an official release yet, nor shown their product, photographs, reviews or anything yet. They have just announced that they soon will be doing so.

It is interesting to see certain individuals in attack dog mode this early and even more interesting to ask the question, WHY?

When I get a look at them later this year I will certainly be posting photos and comments.

As for the price being too low, buyers will have a look at them, if they measure up, order them before they realise "their mistake" and stick the price up.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:
Dave

You wouldn't happen to own a California Rigby with those glued on barrels and apprentice level engraving would you? Or have you just bought into the paid for advertising put out in articles by a well known, and locally favourite, gun writer about the quality of the the Miller rifles?

Nope but I have to confess, I think Geoff Miller is kinda getting screwed here.

On what basis ?

If he didn't make sure all the i's were dotted and t's crossed when
he bought whatever he bought, then that's his fault. If he couldn't
make sure that the name / trademark etc were secure, why blame someone
else.


I will agree with the poster above who said this
"He has done more for making London Rigby's valuable than Rigby ever did for themselves."

I have to thank Geoff Miller for that, he did a wonderful job of it as well.

Irrespective of any legal/corporate names, if the Californian Rigby's were up to the standard of the "mark", there would not have been any real "market opportunity" to be utilised. But there is. No doubt.

I'm looking forward to seeing the new guns, double rifles and Mauser 98 bolt actions when they are all eventually released.

Deleted. Triple post!

....and I repeat:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
When are they expecting said rifles to hit the market? January in time for the shows?

Brett

Brett,

I believe I saw a post somewhere saying they hoped to have a double rifle in Africa (for testing) within a few months......... certainly before Christmas.

Whether they'll have a booth at the conventions, I don't know and it could be there might be issues with that in regard to the US based company of similar name but not connected.