I'm wondering if anybody else here has actually chronographed the loads that they shoot in their .450 #2 NE with 500 grain, not 480 grain, 450 grain, etc? I've seen a few posts where people quote what they THINK that they're getting. I went to the range today with 4 different loads. The barrels are Douglas Supremes, 25 1/2" long. Air temp was about 20 degrees Fahrenheit with total overcast so no direct sunlight on the skyscreens. A brand-new battery was installed in the Chrony. 4 shots were fired with each load, 2 rights and 2 lefts. The velocities given are the average of the four. Over the 16 shots fired, and with all four loads, the left barrel produced exactly 30 fps less than the right. Except for powder, all components were identical:

Case: Bertram
Primer: Federal #215
Bullet; Hornady #4504, 500 grain RNSP
Filler: 2 grains of dacron

Load #1: Reloader 15, 88.0 grains.....Velocity: 1981fps, Extreme Spread: 60fps
Load #2: Reloader 15, 89.0 grains.....Velocity: 1966fps,(note, 1 grain more powder, 15fps slower), ES:44fps
Load #3: Reloader 15, 90.0 grains.....Velocity: 1997fps, Extreme Spread: 53fps
Load #4: IMR 4831, 106.0 grains.....Velocity: 2041fps, Extreme Spread: 74fps

The 4831 load showed noticeably more flattening of the primers, not severe, but certainly this load is giving higher pressure than any of the 3 Rel-15 loads. I'm frankly a little disappointed as I thought that it would be a simple matter to get 2050fps with this cartridge. I'm wondering if anybody else out there has similar ACTUAL data, perhaps with a different powder, that is giving higher velocities than these, without signs of excess pressure? I have to settle on my final load for this gun so that I can begin the regulation process.

quote:

I have to settle on my final load for this gun so that I can begin the regulation process.

Should not the regulation process determin the final load?

The final load with my 470 NE was determined when both barrels came together on the target at 50 yds without crossing. In this case I used 88.2 grains of Rel 15 which resulted in a velocity of 2120.

I think our friend wants 2150 fps as the regulation velocity,

as opposed to ~ 1975 fps, 175 fps less. He should remeber that

100 years ago that 2150 was done in 28" BBLs, and with a bullet

about 4% lighter. IMHO 2050 fps or slightly better should

be your goal with these shorter bbls and 500 grn bullet.

Every rifle is different but I'd just add more powder! If your gun opens as usual and the cases just fall out when you open it up I can't see how the pressure is too high.

It may not be equivalent but in the 470 I get about 2150 with 112 gr. of H4831sc or 86 gr. of RL-15. This seems to be opposite trend of what you are getting. Go figure.

Bigfivejack,
As I stated in my original post, the velocity that I'm looking for is 2050 NOT 2150.

If everyone is satisfied with 2050f/s from a 450#2 and a 500 gr. bullet then why is the 458 Win. Mag. considered such a poor showing at the same velocity?

It's not, the .458 is a good performer at that velocity. The problem with the .458 was that a lot of early factory loads were LUCKY to make 1850fps, consequently gave lousy penetration on heavy, dangerous game, and the cartridge has carried a bum rap ever since. In MOST rifles, with the right powder, like IMR4320, you can get 2000fps fairly easily out of the .458 WM.

quote:

Originally posted by ron vella:
It's not, the .458 is a good performer at that velocity. The problem with the .458 was that a lot of early factory loads were LUCKY to make 1850fps, consequently gave lousy penetration on heavy, dangerous game, and the cartridge has carried a bum rap ever since. In MOST rifles, with the right powder, like IMR4320, you can get 2000fps fairly easily out of the .458 WM.

Or try AA2230 with a 500 grain bullet for an easy 2,100 to 2,200 fps.

Tim

Yes,

Shumba is right. Itd no issue to get to those velocities.

There is a noticeable improvement taking the .458" 500 grainers from 2050fps to 2135fps or so. I have killed several elephants with each load and a couple buff with the slower load. 2050fps will do the job, 2135 will do it better for elephants. 2050fps is fine for buff.

My thoughts.

JPK

BTW,

You should try to PM 450 NE No2. He has loaded 500 grain bullets in his 450 No2 and IIRC, he's getting something like 2120fps, maybe a bit better.

JPK

I exchanged e-mails with 450 #2 a while ago on this subject. That's what he thinks that he's getting out of his 28" barrels but he's never actually chronographed his loads. I've killed one buffalo with the .458. My loads drove the 500 grain Hornadys at 2170fps. The solids went thru him like he wasn't even there. The softs were right under the skin of the off shoulder, perfectly mushroomed and over 80% weight retention.

Ron,

Sorry, I misread your opener.

Retreever loads for and shoots a 450 #2 FAMARS built DR too.

Ron,

My experience with the 2050fps loads, but Woodleighs, is not up to that standard, but again, plenty for buff. Through and through on side on profile shots, not through and through on end to end shots but plenty enough.(all shots with solids)

Elephants at 2050fps were fine. Much better at 2135fps.

450 NE No2 is a low, low pressure round. If it were my rifle I'd shoot for 2100-2150fps.

JPK

actual chrony data from my 450 No.2 with 24" barrels: 94.0 gr. RL15 with 500 gr. Hornady 2070fps. with same bullet and 95.0 gr. RL15 gets 2110 fps, and 96.0 gr. with same bullet 2165 fps. 525 gr. cast LBT's behind 96.0 gr. RL15 break 2200 fps and shoot great. the original load was 80.0 gr. of cordite and soures such as The Double Gun Journal and Shooting British Double Rifles by G. Wright use a conversion formula of original cordite load X 1.19= Grs. of RL15. In my limited experience with the 450 No.2 and the 450NE this has worked very well with duplicating velocities and no pressure signs. I too have found that the slower powders give higher pressure signs so i follow the trail blazed by others. RL15 loads in NE calibers have passed the Birmingham Proof House and actually gave less pressure than the old cordite stuff. FWIW

Admiral,
That is EXTREMELY useful information. Thanks, I will try some 95 & 96 grains, had not yet gone that high.

Ron, I shoot 89 grs of RL15 and 5 grs of dacron...

Mike

quote:

Air temp was about 20 degrees Fahrenheit with total overcast so no direct sunlight on the skyscreens.

The load that is getting you 1980 fps at 20 degrees could very well get you 2050 fps in "hunting" temperatures. And if you are going to peg the load to regulation, keep in mind that what you set up for 20 degree weather will perform differently in warm weather.

If you are pegging close to the pressure max in cold weather, that same load can lead to too much pressure in hot weather.

Jim, I understand all of that, which is why I kept the ammunition warm, inside my vest pocket, underneath my parka, and only brought out 2 at a time as I fired them. Also, for some unknown reason, this gun seems to be one of those blessed doubles that is not load-sensitive. 12 shots were fired, 6 lefts and 6 rights, with 4 different loads, by 2 different shooters. The composite groups for each barrel were under 2 inches.

FWIW,

Just playing with my DR and the chronograph in the heat last summer. I found that the chrono didn't change much with sun heated hot shells but changed more with sun heated hot barrels.

This was consistant with the different powders I tried but the powders were not equal wrt the crono climb.

JPK

Admiral,
I tried your load advice at the range yesterday and chronied them. 94.0 grains of Reloader 15, at 20 degrees Fahrenheit ambient temperature, gave me an average velocity, for 6 shots, of 2061 fps with an extreme deviation of only 4 fps. Cases dropped right out of the chambers and the primers show no flattening whatsoever. I see no reason to search further. I've found my regulation load. Cannot thank you enough sir, for the assistance which you've given to me.

Keep well and good shooting,
Ron Vella.

THREE CHEERS for Admiral, Ron Vella and of

course this site that we love, Accurate Reloading!!!