British and Best..

03 August 2017, 21:40

Zephyr

British and Best..

"Ralf effectively explained that these customers had been wearing shoes that didn't fit for so long that they thought they did.

I'm going to take a stab here concerning a "used" British Gun. Lord knows I have handled more than my share of British double rifles and shotguns. I'm going to use Purdy guns for the sake of discussion.
As established in this thread everyone of these guns have been made for someone else, so like the shoe analogy we are stepping into a strangers shoes when we shoulder a used bespoke gun.
If you place ten Purdy double rifles or shotguns on a table and shoulder each and everyone if you are lucky one may fit you, feel like a magic wand and if you have the where withall go home with you. Everything else may feel like a war club. Cause like those shoes they just don't fit or feel right despite the fact that the gun is carrying the Purdy name.
I have no problems buying a gun whose fit is close, if in the price of the gun I can negotiate a stock fitting, LOP, Drop and Cast or if the gun is REALLY worth it have the work done else where.

05 August 2017, 08:36

577NitroExpress

When I bought my double about 10 years ago, I was in the market for an English Double. After many months of searching, a fellow forumite put me on a trail for an A. Francotte in .470 that was made in the early 1920s. WHen I held it it felt like many of the other English doubles I handled and shot. For the price, I couldn't pass it up. Many guys in the DRSS have handled and shot my rifle and many have said that it handles very close to an English double.

10 August 2017, 09:53

Atkinson

Nickh,
Your post is somewhat flawed in that those guns that were put together with so much care is correct on that part, but the fact that they were fitted to someone other than yourself can make a big difference..Fortunatly the human body can adjust itself to shoot about any hand held rifle, therefore many folks are shooting guns that don't fit them and getting away with it..

577,
Like you I consider the old Francottes as good a double rifle as there is for the hunter..My favorite using double by far...

10 August 2017, 14:08

nickh

Atkinson,

Reread my post , you haven't understood it at all.
I was answering to the comment put forth by Mike whom quoted that of thE recent double rifle productions, the English guns were the most expensive and least bespoke.
I corrected that statement in so far as in recent double rifle production in England, all
Of these guns are bespoke, non are made as a stock item.
If the customer wants a wide forend or stock, that's what he shall get!!
I had my WR made with a thin splinter forend and narrow stock with a 15"length of pull with a little Drop and cast off. That's what fits me!!

As,to shooting an ill fitting heavy recoiling double accurately, well that's
a very different story!! If it doesn't fit you, it's going to hurt you when you shoot it!!
You will then not be able to accurately shoot it!!

Cheers

Nick

18 August 2017, 18:08

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Tough to argue with those thoughts. In my view, the design of double rifles peaked in pre-World War II Britain. While things like metallurgy and the like may have continued to improve, in terms of the combination of style, fit and function . . . the British doubles made in the 1920's and 1930's are the pinnacle of the art.

I also agree that the Britts do have the corner on the quality as far as fit, balance and finish on the rifles made between the big wars. However today there are some very good "WORKING" double rifles made in other countries as well.

That said I have some doubles made in Germany before the WW1 that are just as well fitted and balanced as the Brit made between the wars, and with early ones the Krupp barrels are as sound and tight today as they were in in the first decade of 1900s.

I have a Westley Richards 500-450#1 express made in 1892 that is balanced as well as the ones made between the wars, and are tight as a drum still!

The German rifles of today are well made, and are very accurate, but I must agree that in most cases the styling is a little far out, and some of the systems are OVER THE TOP for UGLY!

However if you can't afford a Britt best, and you want to hunt game with a double rifle there are many double rifles built in other countries that will serve you well in the field at 1/3 the cost of a new Britt field grade but you wont have the bragging rights the Britt will give you If that matters to you !
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11 September 2017, 01:14

Atkinson

Ive never had a double rifle made to fit me with the exception of one Searcy, the rest were using doubles in WR, A&N, Francotte, etc. All served me well in Africa, so guess that's all that counts for me anyway..

Much of custom fitting is BS IMO and in the mind of the shooter and there are exceptions Im sure.

I can list them btw.

11 September 2017, 06:43

Huvius

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
...Much of custom fitting is BS IMO and in the mind of the shooter and there are exceptions Im sure. I can list them btw.

I think that in the rifle world you are right.
Very rarely will a rifle hunter always take the shot from one position, with the same type rest, with the same clothing, in the same conditions.
Even bird hunters will not always be in consistent conditions, but very likely they will mount the gun in a consistent manner. Take that to the arena of competition trap, skeet and even sporting clays then I agree that gun dimensions and fit play a very important role.
Same can be said of competitive rifle shooters, but everyday hunters and recreational riflemen? I don't buy it...

11 September 2017, 07:06

Big Wonderful Wyoming

quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Cal

Have you researched how many doubles were built in the inter war years ? Who were they built for ? Where they were sold ? Price point at which they were sold?

You might find some very interesting information.

I will bet in recent double rifle production the high end British guns are the most expensive and the least bespoke.

Mike

So true, built on a CNC machine in Germany and shipped to Britain to be sanded, oiled and increased in price.

Reminds me of the value of the made in Alaska sticker. Wood hand carved in Vietnam or Cambodia in Alaska style to be sanded and painted in Alaska.

11 September 2017, 09:41

nickh

You guys know very little about British double rifle production especially in the modern era.

Not really worth trying to educate the arm chair experts here...

Believe what thou will,and enjoy your Sabattis, Merkels etc.

Nick

11 September 2017, 13:22

shootaway

I believe in fitting a rifle to a shooter for iron sights.My Searcy made me a believer.With a well fitted rifle you effortlessly look down the CENTRE of your sight plane once you naturally shoulder the rifle.That way the rifle will not shoot to the right or left.If not fitted properly it is difficult to aim a heavy rifle or a heavy recoiling rifle.To test this try sighting in a rifle off a rest off a bench and then shoot it offhand a few times and see if you get the same point of impact.When the rifle is shot off a solid rest you are not struggling to lift and hold it and at the same time aim it.You can easily take your time and get your head into position to align your eye with the sights and target.A heavy recoiling rifle causes the shooter to squeeze the rifle very tight pulling it into his body messing up the aim.

13 September 2017, 06:02

Atkinson

Shootaway,
We could have some good conversation over a campfire on the subject I suspect..

IMO, if the comb is correct and the LOP is correct, I can master that gun under any circumstances..would I like some cast off, you bet, but I don't need it.

Although I like what Nick says about a splinter forend and thin butt stock, cast off, I do disagree with him on his judgement of double rifle shooters on AR, most of which Ive either met or know well. They are quite knowledgable on double rifles, way more than the average shooters..and should not be maligned by anyone as arm chair experts, The ones I know are not that, not at all...To suggest such is rude and incredibly ignorant in that you know not one of us.

I suspect that I and many of the AR double rifle shooters have shot and hunted as much as Nick has, so I suggest he take a different approach to the subject..Id bet dollars to donuts Ive hunted more DG with doubles than he has, Ive been in the business a long time and have a lot of donated DG and PG behind me and many of the posters on AR have a lot of DG and plains game experience...

Just a wake up call Nick, and Im sure you are one of the posters with experience as well, but you come across as a legend in your own mind.

13 September 2017, 12:16

nickh

quote:
Originally posted by nickh:
Ray,

I've met quite a few of the contributors here in person, both in the field in Africa and at the shows. They are not the ones I'm referring to.

Your assertion that i "know not one of them " is plain WRONG Ray!!!!!!!!!!

Its the ones that contribute here with little or any DR ownership or use in Africa which i refer to.

There are many on AR that fall into this category, as you Ray, and more of the informed members know all too well!!!

More specifically if you re read my post Ray, my comments relate to "modern era" British DR production.

The comment was squarely made in regards to the naive comment from BWW about CNC Machined German actions
sent to the UK etc etc etc…

Westleys,Purdey,Holland and Watson Bros don't do this and it is sacrilege to even
suggest such a thing.!!!!

Now Rigby is a whole other story and I'm yet to see a double that they have produced
under the new German ownership.

As to you having hunted more DG with doubles???? All i know is you are a hell of a lot older than me Ray!!!! if i get to your age Ray …… who knows the numbers you talk about??? Interested to here about them though. Please enlighten us ...

When did you last hunt Bull elephant with a Double
Rifle???

Your comment re "Legend in ones own mind" i feel belongs to you mate!!!!

When I'm at Westley Richards in a couple of weeks checking on my next DR build, i'll show your enlightened words of wisdom re custom fitting of a big DR. to the guys at the workbenches… particularly the BS comment!!! will post back what they say!!!!! But maybe you know better Ray…

George highlights this in his post, and agree with him in this instance 100%

Id like to see someone shoot a straight stocked heavy DR with no cast accurately and well in a pressure situation…

On paper everything is do able, in the field quite different .

I pass the "wake up" call to you Mudala !!!

I'm definitely awake and out there doing it in Africa mate. can't say the same for some others though...

cheers

Nick