O/U,458 Lott

28 June 2018, 21:21

Bill73

O/U,458 Lott

I have two o/u Dr's,I also have three SxS Dr's,they are all accurate guns,but the Lott impresses me the most,I have shot a lot of rounds through that gun,took a tuskless with it a few years ago,this gun is accurate with most anything from 350's to 500's,yesterday I loaded up some 400 gr Woodleigh pp's,thinking of developing a plains game load,two different powders,3031 & H335,the speeds were 2300 to 2400 fps with the hottest loads,everything shot 1'- 2' @ 50 yrds,I moved on to 100 yrds,still about the same,I was shooting off a standing rest,temp was 80 degf,I have a Docter sight on this gun,I was pleased to say the least,this gun has been worked on by our own H2o boy on AR,it was a 458 win mag originally.
I feel that O/U double rifles might be more accurate because of the direction of the recoil?
I am thinking that the gun recoils back & up,the bottom barrel fires with the front trigger,& both the barrels being on a vertical plane are more stable?
Both my o/u guns were easy to work up regulation loads for,& this gun will shoot good even at different speeds yesterday my slowest load was 2300 & shot good,2400 & it still shot good,I was shooting over a chrono,let's hear from other shooters who shoot O/U's,maybe some of the more experienced on here can elaborate if the vertical plane of the two barrels can actually make a difference in stability & accuracy?
Those that hate O/U's ? your comments will be appreciated as well

28 June 2018, 21:29

Mississippian

Drinking already Bal??

28 June 2018, 22:01

Bill73

quote:
Originally posted by Mississippian:
Drinking already Bal??

Having a brewery means you gotta taste da beer

29 June 2018, 19:57

Todd Williams

quote:
Originally posted by Bill73:

I feel that O/U double rifles might be more accurate because of the direction of the recoil?

I feel owning an O/U double rifle is a bit like kissing your sister!

Yeah, it's got two barrels and your sister is a girl.

That said,

No, it ain't the same thing!

29 June 2018, 20:17

Heym SR20

Not sure what all the fuss is about over and under double rifles. OK they are not side by sides, but then nor is an over and under double shotgun not a side by side.

A loaded o/u is just as pointable as a side by side. And to be honest there are plenty of s/s that are heavy just don't point as there are o/u that also don't handle well.

But equally there are plenty that do.

There is an argument that o/u take longer to reload than a s/s. Yes there is a slightly wider gape on an o/u and you have to open the barrels a fraction wider, but on a driven phaesant shoot I can reload my o/u just as fast as a side by side, and my double o/u 7x65r is again just as fast to reload.

There is the point of single v double trigger. I much prefer a double trigger on both side by side and over and under.

Granted I do think side by sides do look more elegant and there some pretty ugly over and unders, although there are a fair share of ugly side by sides as well.

An over and under is probably easier to shoot and to shoot well. I would like to shoot a side by side well, but my over and under 12 fits so well its my gun of choice.

For rifles - where there is a bit of an aim taken an over and under is probably easier.

Big point though for over and unders is that they to go for a lot less. You can pick up a decent Ferlach or German built over and under double for very reasonable money. Turn the barrels though 90 degrees and you pay twice for the privalege.

29 June 2018, 20:28

Todd Williams

quote:
Originally posted by Heym SR20:
Not sure what all the fuss is about over and under double rifles. OK they are not side by sides, but then nor is an over and under double shotgun not a side by side.

Lots of hillbillies wonder what the fuss is about kissing their sisters also.

Some of them have seen the light and evolved a bit and moved on to 1st cousins.

All the justifications aside, it STILL isn't the same!

lol

29 June 2018, 21:17

Hogbreath

Todd,

Your still a luddite!

29 June 2018, 21:32

Todd Williams

quote:
Originally posted by Hogbreath:
Todd,

Your still a luddite!

Damn straight.

And I haven't even started in on the Blaser abominations yet!

29 June 2018, 22:39

458Win

I don't know anything about kissing Todd's sister but do know that my 45/400 O&U is quick, reliable, dependable and can easily be scoped for shots well past 300 yards if needed.
The O&U design my not be cricket for Anglophiles , but it is a good design.

29 June 2018, 22:48

Biebs

quote:
I don't know anything about kissing Todd's sister

Phil, just imagine Todd with long hair and a deeper voice....enough said? :-)

29 June 2018, 23:48

crshelton

All good fun and I am glad to see that most all did not take this thread seriously.

30 June 2018, 00:15

Mississippian

Bal, dont pay any attention to Todd Williams! Just think of your beautiful sexy hand made in Russia O/U as a step sister! Step sisters are fair game!

30 June 2018, 00:52

Bill73

Todd,
can we see a video of you shooting while you are holding your sister's hand?you seem to be knowledgeable on this subject,please make sure there is a good soundtrack

Now while Todd is thinking of some smart comeback

,will someone with some understanding of the recoil forces that effect a double rifle SxS versus an O/U please chime in?
I am not attempting to insult anyone's mama or sister or hillbillies etc,I shoot both types & am ok with either,was just reporting my experience.

30 June 2018, 02:38

butchloc

i dunno but i own both and find my o/u;s are much more accurate for instance one of my berettas (30:06)will group both barrels 1" at 100 yds none of by sxs's will come close to that

30 June 2018, 02:41

DCS Member

What if you shoot an O/U DR “gangsta” style? Does it then become a SxS? Your shoulder might not like it...

30 June 2018, 02:45

Bill73

quote:
Originally posted by butchloc:
i dunno but i own both and find my o/u;s are much more accurate for instance one of my berettas (30:06)will group both barrels 1" at 100 yds none of by sxs's will come close to that

Is your Beretta scoped?

30 June 2018, 09:02

Todd Williams

I may be from East Texas boys but my family tree has more than one fork!!!

I figure most of you fellers that are OK with an O/U Twin Barrel thingofamajig (just have a hard time calling it a Double Rifle) are probably the types that covet those abominations known as Blasers also.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure what's worse, an O/U twin barrel or one of those super ugly Blaser S2 side by side things.

Both contraptions are a sure sign of the deterioration of polite society. I'd be careful if I were you. Next thing you know, you'll have your car radio presets on Rap Music channels.

30 June 2018, 10:14

458Win

quote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
quote:
I don't know anything about kissing Todd's sister

Phil, just imagine Todd with long hair and a deeper voice....enough said? :-)

But what I wanted to know, and glad you chimed in, what does she kiss like ?

30 June 2018, 15:22

Heym SR20

Put it like this any double however its barrels are stacked is much more elegant than a bolt action, especially the modern rendition of stainless, composite with moderator. Most UK stalkers think the latter is the only type of rifle that can kill deer and it needs a 6 to 32 x 72 scope as a minimum.

30 June 2018, 16:27

p dog shooter

I have always said this about shotguns the best ones have two barrels.

The best of them are SxS the same can be said about double rifles.

SXS are just more classic.

30 June 2018, 17:29

Mississippian

Todd Williams, I think theres still hope for our friend Bal, he cruises around in a Porsche turbo playing Bluegrass!

30 June 2018, 19:39

Todd Williams

quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
quote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
quote:
I don't know anything about kissing Todd's sister

Phil, just imagine Todd with long hair and a deeper voice....enough said? :-)

But what I wanted to know, and glad you chimed in, what does she kiss like ?

As many times as she's been married, I'm surprised you don't already know Phil!

30 June 2018, 20:07

butchloc

quote:
Is your Beretta scoped?

yes the other o/u is part of the matched pair in 9.3x74 also scoped and that one does about 2.5" with both barrels

30 June 2018, 20:17

Transvaal

English gunmaker John Robertson more than 100 years ago introduced the classic English SxS shooting world to his latest innovation--that of a over/under barreled rounded action Boss & Company shotgun. Robertson had purchased Boss & Company nearly 20 years earlier and before that he was a private London gunmaker who made entire guns for the London trade such as Stephen Grant, Holland & Holland, and maybe Purdey-- I do not remember now. Prior to his development of what became the finest O/U shotgun design in the world he changed the typical square bodied London pattern side lock ejector(SLE) by "rounding" the action to more easily fit the hands of the shooter.

His O/U Boss & Company shotguns proved straight away to be a vast improvement for shooters over the SxS barreled shotguns by improving kills per shot.

Boss & Company made a few O/U rifles, and they were and are very very expensive. King George of his day was asked why he did not own a Boss shotgun (SxS) responded that they were beautiful guns but were too bloody expensive--too expensive even for the King (Wow, a King who was concerned with economics--now that is a novel thought).

Although I am a SxS shotgun and double rife fan, to my mind it is unlikely that a SxS double rifle can be as accurate as a O/U double rifle built by Boss & Company or a Hartmann & Weiss built double rifle built on the Boss design.

To my mind also it is unlikely that any of us participants to this site will be able to discuss the accuracy of their Boss & Co. O/U double rifle (or Hartmann & Weiss) as I do not expect any of us can afford to own one.

There are always exceptions and there are many SxS double rifles that are very accurate (and I own one that will place bullets touching each other at 100 yards); but if a contest were held for accuracy with a group of shooters shooting Purdey, Holland & Holland and Boss & Co. double rifles (in both SxS and O/U designs), I would expect that the O/U double rifles to win from any of these three. In 1948 Purdey bought Woodward who had developed an excellent O/U shootgun and Purdey wanted that Woodward design. I do not recall if Purdey has built any O/U double rifles on the Woodward design.

About 2-years ago Arthur S. Demoulas (chairman of Market Basket grocers in Boston) purchased Boss & Company of London (really it is on the South side of Kew Bridge just north of down town London). I am very interested in seeing what Mr. Demoulas is going to do with Boss & Co. as he has added more apprentice gunmakers and back in February of this year purchased JB Phillipson the noted supplier of machined actions to the English gun trade (David McKay Brown Co., for one comes to mind). I think Phillipson's is even making barrels now, and of course they are making many other gun/rifle components. Phillipson's has been a innovator in changing from old school machine shop equipment to advanced digital electronic controlled machining techniques and systems. My guess is we are going to see Boss & Co. regain it's lead in innovation just as John Robertson did over 100 years ago.

01 July 2018, 01:35

Bill73

quote:
Originally posted by Transvaal:
English gunmaker John Robertson more than 100 years ago introduced the classic English SxS shooting world to his latest innovation--that of a over/under barreled rounded action Boss & Company shotgun. Robertson had purchased Boss & Company nearly 20 years earlier and before that he was a private London gunmaker who made entire guns for the London trade such as Stephen Grant, Holland & Holland, and maybe Purdey-- I do not remember now. Prior to his development of what became the finest O/U shotgun design in the world he changed the typical square bodied London pattern side lock ejector(SLE) by "rounding" the action to more easily fit the hands of the shooter.

His O/U Boss & Company shotguns proved straight away to be a vast improvement for shooters over the SxS barreled shotguns by improving kills per shot.

Boss & Company made a few O/U rifles, and they were and are very very expensive. King George of his day was asked why he did not own a Boss shotgun (SxS) responded that they were beautiful guns but were too bloody expensive--too expensive even for the King (Wow, a King who was concerned with economics--now that is a novel thought).

Although I am a SxS shotgun and double rife fan, to my mind it is unlikely that a SxS double rifle can be as accurate as a O/U double rifle built by Boss & Company or a Hartmann & Weiss built double rifle built on the Boss design.

To my mind also it is unlikely that any of us participants to this site will be able to discuss the accuracy of their Boss & Co. O/U double rifle (or Hartmann & Weiss) as I do not expect any of us can afford to own one.

There are always exceptions and there are many SxS double rifles that are very accurate (and I own one that will place bullets touching each other at 100 yards); but if a contest were held for accuracy with a group of shooters shooting Purdey, Holland & Holland and Boss & Co. double rifles (in both SxS and O/U designs), I would expect that the O/U double rifles to win from any of these three. In 1948 Purdey bought Woodward who had developed an excellent O/U shootgun and Purdey wanted that Woodward design. I do not recall if Purdey has built any O/U double rifles on the Woodward design.

About 2-years ago Arthur S. Demoulas (chairman of Market Basket grocers in Boston) purchased Boss & Company of London (really it is on the South side of Kew Bridge just north of down town London). I am very interested in seeing what Mr. Demoulas is going to do with Boss & Co. as he has added more apprentice gunmakers and back in February of this year purchased JB Phillipson the noted supplier of machined actions to the English gun trade (David McKay Brown Co., for one comes to mind). I think Phillipson's is even making barrels now, and of course they are making many other gun/rifle components. Phillipson's has been a innovator in changing from old school machine shop equipment to advanced digital electronic controlled machining techniques and systems. My guess is we are going to see Boss & Co. regain it's lead in innovation just as John Robertson did over 100 years ago.

Thanks for posting this

01 July 2018, 07:03

BwanaCole

As to accuracy, ease of shooting, and handling, I guess you would have to ask yourself, "How many top skeet shooters use sxs guns?"

I'm an absolute anglophile and love sxs double rifles, but I bet the same physics that make o/u guns the only choice for serious clay shooters also apply to dangerous game rifles.

01 July 2018, 09:57

cal pappas

We shoot side by side as our eyes are side by side.
If the Good Lord wanted us to shoot over/unders then He would have given us eyes one above the other.
Shooting a side by side is biblical.
Cal

_______________________________

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01 July 2018, 10:34

Beretta682E

Blasers rule

Arguing over o/u versus sxs doubles is like saying one can hit a 55 gallon drum versus 44 gallon drum at 50 yards.

Just get a blaser r-8 and evolve

Mike

01 July 2018, 10:38

Todd Williams

quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Blasers ~~rule~~ SUCK.
Mike

Fixed it for you Mike.

01 July 2018, 11:22

Beretta682E

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Blasers ~~rule~~ SUCK.
Mike

Fixed it for you Mike.

Mike

01 July 2018, 12:25

DCS Member

quote:
Originally posted by Mississippian:
Todd Williams, I think theres still hope for our friend Bal, he cruises around in a Porsche turbo playing Bluegrass!

A Boxster?

01 July 2018, 12:32

sambarman338

I've only owned one O/U rifle, a Winchester made in Japan, and wondered if any thought to regulation even crossed their mind.

However, if you have an O/U that prints the barrels close, one above the other, one might be zeroed for a certain distant range, the other another.

Also, unless the regulation demands full-house Lott loads, I'd be inclined load it back to 458 Win velocities, to reduce strain on the action.

01 July 2018, 15:23

enfieldspares

Boss was very much "left behind" after WWII and became almost itinerant, nomadic, as it had failed to look forward by securing its London SW base.

Purdey had South Audley Street, Holland's moved from Bond Street and then to Bruton Street and Bruton Street again.

Both have a future secured with a secure base and yet Boss was at Dover Street then Cork Street, Dover Street again and then Mount Street and Mount Street two doors up.

It's no way to do business!

I wish Mr DeMoulas well. I think, as others say, we might see a revival of Boss. I've shot Purdey, Holland, Boss. I've owned guns by the last two and presently own and shoot a Boss.

FWIW I see no point in any Purdey side-by-side since Holland's self opening system debuted in 1922.

Of the O/U bespoke London guns only Woodward and Boss are worth a damn...and of course Purdey O/U are now Woodwards.

The snobbery against O/U guns on a driven day has finally disappeared in the UK. In fact on may shoots... search You Tube for driven partridge, driven grouse, driven pheasant and the Miroku reigns supreme!

Use what you want. Use what you enjoy. I've never owned, nor shot an O/U. I might shoot better if I did!

But you only live once and even if you blank and shoot nothing there's enjoyment in owning a nice gun. So for that reason buy a gun, any gun, that YOU enjoy!

But as a system the side-by-side with double triggers or a mechanical not inertia single trigger is superior IMHO for ease of reloading.

That FWIW trumps any superiority of a single sighting plane. Side-by-side guns dominated driven game shooting in the UK for that single reason.

I've all the time in the world, almost, to reload at Skeet 1, or Skeet 2. Bang. Reload. Bang. Reload. Bang, bang. Yet live pigeon shooters in Europe did persist with side-by-side guns for many years even after reliable, affordable O/U guns became available. Why? Second shot reliability!

If the pheasants are flushing thick an fast I want those spent cartridges out and new ones it in quicker time than it takes to write or read this!

Yes and O/U ejects quick.. except I need to open it further than a side-by-side. But NO it can never be reloaded as quickly from the hand.

We all know rifles I guess. The O/U is the Mauser 98 system of shotguns. The Lee Enfield is the side-by-side equivalent.

One shot. Both are as quick. Two shots the same.

After that if you are shooting a flush, a flurry, at three, four, five pheasants in succession the O/U is as inferior to the side-by-side as, in shooting a different kind of game was the Mauser 98 to the Lee Enfield.

The sole practical advantage the O/U offers the driven game shooter is its single sighting plane.

Yes it has a forend that covers the barrels. But you've still got to open them, you've still got to close them so you're still getting skin contact with hot metal.

01 July 2018, 15:55

p dog shooter

quote:
After that if you are shooting a flush, a flurry, at three, four, five pheasants in succession the O/U is as inferior to the side-by-side as

I never done a triple with any of my two barreled shotguns.

With my pumps or semi-auto several.

I still prefer my doubles just for the joy of it.

But most are not steel proof and the more areas becoming non-toxic I using them less.

Yes I know about the other non-toxic loads.

01 July 2018, 16:45

enfieldspares

I've not either. But I have done, twice, one woodcock with one shot, reloaded that right hand barrel and got a second woodcock straight after. It could have been a left and right if I'd not reloaded!

Now I know that couldn't be done with an O/U as I seen neighbour guns in the line with O/U guns caught out by such a sequence of birds. By the time they've closed the gun the bird has passed them.

I note when it's fast and furious most side-by-side users reload after one shot. They know they can usually, just, edge any following bird IF they've heard it, seen it, but it's not yet over them.

Most O/U users if they kill with the first shot appear in similar circumstance to prefer to only reload after discharging the second barrel. They fear they can't edge such a second bird.

Walking up is a different game of course.

If you use a pair of O/U guns.. Miroku MK38 seem the choice of many... there's no disadvantage between them and a pair of side-by-side.

01 July 2018, 18:26

Bill73

quote:
Originally posted by DCS Member:
quote:
Originally posted by Mississippian:
Todd Williams, I think theres still hope for our friend Bal, he cruises around in a Porsche turbo playing Bluegrass!

A Boxster?

911.

02 July 2018, 18:51

sambarman338

Do Side-by-sides wear better than O/U guns and rifles? I know product placement is big in most media but I can't forget Jackie Stewart opining that average Beretta O/U guns in his experience will outlast by far London S/S ones. I know that the latter are made lighter so the finer clients don't tire from lifting them, but here in the colonies driven game is a rarity, heavier loads more usual and, despite the miles we walk in a day, I don't recall anyone ever complaining about his gun's weight.

My family and I use and love Berettas for their easy cleaning and low O/U profile but it is hard to see the cones having more strength than a triple bolted S/S.

I agree with Enfieldspare's thoughts on triggers. When you want to fire the tight choke first, no selector is as quick as reaching for the other trigger - and you don't need to switch back mechanically afterwards. I hate Browning-type selectors most of all, having had two that tended to migrate to the middle when the safety was pulled back and then jam when pushed forward again.

03 July 2018, 00:10

enfieldspares

Those awful excrescences on S/S guns! They add nothing except false confidence to the gullible.

Most of the British writers tested them. Teasdale-Buckle, Greener, Burrard. All found them wanting, useless, unless perfectly and finely fitted.

And they slow reloading. You can't "turn in" a pair of cartridges on a S/S with one of these abominations.

That is you hold the cartridges side by side. You locate the front end of one of them on the proud ejector/extractor. Then turn your wrist until the front end of the second cartridge is stopped by the proud ejector/extractor of the other barrel.

I won't own a gun with such. A simple Purdey underbolt is enough. A concealed third bite if you must. But the cost of all Doll's Heads, Webley Third Bites, God awful cross bolts is reduced bearing radius on the extractor/ejector.

Beretta uses, basically, Woodward's system I think. That is good enough a pedigree.