I recently acquired a 450 NE double. I couldn’t find any empty brass online so I bought a couple hundred rounds of Hornady ammo to shoot in the gun in order to salvage the brass.

When I fire the Hornady ammo in the gun, the right barrel consistently prints 3” right of point of aim at 50 yards and the left barrel prints 3” left of point of aim. Elevation is perfect with both barrels. Can a change in bullet weight/velocity help move the points of impact closer together? If I can get the windage sorted out I assume it might change the elevation which could be sorted out by changing the front sight height? I’m honestly not sure where to start.

Thanks in advance for any help.

DJH

[QUOTE]Originally posted by x-caliber:
Can a change in bullet weight/velocity help move the points of impact closer together?

Absolutely! Unless you know the loads used to regulate your double, there is a fair amount of trial and error in getting a double rifle to shoot with barrels printing within an inch of each other at 50 yards. Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" has some load data for your 450. It is a good place to start. I had the best luck in my 450 with North Fork and Woodleigh bullets. You will just need to tinker with poweder charges, bullets etc to get it right. If all else fails, pick a load you want it to shoot and send it to JJ Perodeau for regulation - he does exceptional work for a fair price.

If you own a double you need to hand load.Speed it up (within safe limits). More powder and/or lighter bullet.

Great info, thanks guys! I'll chrono this Hornady factory ammo (supposedly what the gun was regulated with) and go from there. I'll also check out Graeme Wright's book if/when I can find a copy.

You guys are a great resource, I appreciate your help!

DJH

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:
I recently acquired a 450 NE double. I couldn’t find any empty brass online so I bought a couple hundred rounds of Hornady ammo to shoot in the gun in order to salvage the brass.

When I fire the Hornady ammo in the gun, the right barrel consistently prints 3” right of point of aim at 50 yards and the left barrel prints 3” left of point of aim. Elevation is perfect with both barrels. Can a change in bullet weight/velocity help move the points of impact closer together? If I can get the windage sorted out I assume it might change the elevation which could be sorted out by changing the front sight height? I’m honestly not sure where to start.

Thanks in advance for any help.

DJH

Hornady ammo in the past has been loaded with different powders to attain regulation speeds,I have had experience with two different rifles,brand new,a Heym & a Westley Richards,in a 450-400 & 470,that would not shoot well with Hornady ammo,they were both regulated with Hornady ammo,it depends on the powder used & the gun will shoot well,in both the guns mentioned,different batches of Hornady ammo cured the problem,I would suggest that you try ammo with a different batch number.
For my 450-400 I use the load data now supplied by Hornady & the gun shoots real well.

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:
Great info, thanks guys! I'll chrono this Hornady factory ammo (supposedly what the gun was regulated with) and go from there. I'll also check out Graeme Wright's book if/when I can find a copy.

You guys are a great resource, I appreciate your help!

DJH

X, I've got Graeme's 2nd and 3rd editions if you'd like to borrow them during your load development. PM your address and if interested and just throw them in a flat rate box when done.
Bob

Great info, thanks so much guys!

Bob, I'll send you a PM with my address. Many thanks for the generous offer!

DJH

It's NOT just the speed!!!
Everyone knows this but keep touting, speed; However,it is as much HOW the bullet gets to that speed, and when in the recoil cycle it leaves the muzzle, as speed.
Just one example; I have more; my 450 NE was regulated with 96 IMR 4831 aud it goes into 1.5 inches at 50 all day.. I decided to try some RL15 to lessen the recoil; guess what; the bullets crossed at the SAME velocity.
Why? Less recoil and muzzle flip/jump.
So, there is more than just speed to the equation, and DR are not simple mechanical beings; they are rather complex in how they react.
One other thing; if your Rifle (not gun) was regulated with Hornady, are you sure you are holding it like a DR needs to be, and not hunkered down on a sand bag on the bench. as I often see. That will not allow the muzzles to flip like they will and need to if you are holding it correctly.

Thank you for the suggestions dpcd.

How are you shooting the gun??
from a bench, off of sticks, hand under the barrels or barrels resting on bag or sticks... All of these will effect how the gun shoots..
Hornady Ammo for me has always chronied on the slow side and my 450 has 28" barrels
I was told when I started with doubles be happy if your barrels shoot inside of a grapefruit, be ecstatic if they shoot inside of an orange...
Have fun learning

I am waiting on Hornady to provide me with dies.

If you end up coming up with a RL 15 load please let me know. I have a lifetime supply, so that's what I will try for my .450 NE.

I have Graeme's book where he uses 84 grains of RL 15, but would be curious of other loads that work.

X-caliber,
I live about 90 miles north of Chattanooga. Currently own and load for a 450 NE. Have reloading dies, bullets, and powder on hand and a 50 yard range in my back yard with a shooting bench to boot. If you live close enough and want to make the drive up you are welcome to visit.
We can load, shoot, adjust, and repeat as necessary.
Randy

My buddy built this for me at his 65 acre property.

If you have 200 rounds of Hornady factory ammo, it might be worth trying to pull the bullets and powder. That would save a few $$

I did that with about 70 rounds of 416 Rigby custom loaded with H4831 to low velocity.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions, resources, and offers to help guys, I really appreciate it. My dies were delivered yesterday, thanks 470Evans! This will be a fun project.

sent you a PM

Ok, 84 grains of RL 15 gave me 2050 fps from my searcy. It did not regulate, (it crossed) as I said above, but with 96 4831, It gave 2100 and shoots within 1.5 inches perfectly side by side. Contrary to the diagram above, which is misleading at best.
Now, that is just a number, meaningless for your rifle. NO one can just give you a "load" unless it is the guy that built the rifle for it. You have to do it yourself. Also, as I said, how you hold it is vitally important and you can obviate any good load by not following those guidelines.
Double Rifles are not like other rifles; totally different rules.
Oh, and there are no rules.

quote:

Oh, and there are no rules.

dpcd,
Thank you for your closing comment.

I have to agree with dpcd, it isn't just velocity. I recently went through this same ordeal with a pre-WWI Vierordt in 8 X something Vierordt that had been rechmabered to 8 X 65R Brenneke. Had no idea where to start but finally got it to shoot 1 7/8 to 2 1/4 in. at 50 yards, composite group, open sights. Took a lot of powder, bullets and time and to say I was pleased would be understatement.

Before you tackle that job, you need to fire groups with each barrel individually and determine which barrel is the most accurate!

KEEP IN MIND ANY DOUBLE IS ONLY AS ACCURATE AS THE WORST BARREL..That's the best you can expect with out having the guns barrels resoldered to point of aim..

To a certain extent load develop with move your least accurate to the POI of the most Accurate or visa versa, but the group size won't change just your POI, I for one don't accept the old adage that a double only needs to shoot to point of grape fruit!! I may need to shoot something coming my way in the 1" eyeball, so all mydoubles shot within 2 inches and a couple shot mintute of angle or better in one case. All my Searcy guns shot pin holes..

I suspect your gun needs reregulation, but send the groups you shot to the smith so he will know where to start and which barrel is causing the trouble..the world of the double has nothing in common with bolt guns btw, and "working up loads" etc is not advised, develop one load and stick with that..

Sometimes changing your loads a grain or two will move the POI an inch or perhaps a bit more if your lucky, but not necessarily by adding more powder to get more velocity, In many instances decreasing the powder charge works as well or better..Id load in groups of 4, with one and two gr variations both up and down. after I knew how my barrels shot to start with, in your case the right barrell may shoot to your left barrel or visa versa, then you know you got lucky!!