I just received a Cabelas flyer and the 45-70 or 9.34X74 is on sale for $2799.99

But it shoots like a boomerang

Might be the start of them getting out of Sabatti's ????

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Ouch!!

quote:

Originally posted by generalwar:
But it shoots like a boomerang

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
Ouch!!

quote:

Originally posted by generalwar:
But it shoots like a boomerang

Honest question here, have there been reports of the crown bevel regulation technique on these small frame guns? I thought I read here on Ar that it has not been observed on the 45-70/9.3 guns.

There's a small market for DR, how many do they think they can sell in the U.S. It's a fine gun to get, to see if a DR is right for you or to toy with, it's a price mark gun. Sometimes you need to start some where. American's like bigger and better, but it needs to be faster, DR's fill the big just not faster.

Its no different than buying a Mossberg, comparing it to a Holland & Holland. They will both get the job done, it's just how much you want to pay to do it. Or how deep your pockets are to do it.

carpediem

i need a new anchor for my boat

From very reliable source: 1) Demand is what led to the occasional grinding technique. This issue is being addressed...no more of this technique, 2) Regulation is the most time consuming part of the production process...need top "grind" caused by 5% increase in demand for product.

Had my Sabatti 450 NE gone over for a second opinion by a very competent high-end gunsmith. Conclusions same as JJ and previous gunsmith: quality metal work and parts, wood to metal good, stock adequate and appears strong due to grain orientation.

Eagle One
NRA Benefactr
SCI Life Member
SASS Life Member
DRSS ( 450 NE,.375 H&H,.45-70)

quote:

Originally posted by Eagle One:
From very reliable source: 1) Demand is what led to the occasional grinding technique. This issue is being addressed...no more of this technique

Poor excuse, not acceptable as a reason for using it.
Good to hear it is gone.

quote:

Originally posted by Eagle One:
2) Regulation is the most time consuming part of the production process...

You don't say. Did they only just work that out ?

Piss poor planning if they hadn't factored in the time to do a Proper regulation.


I wonder where the "pressure to change" has came from or ha someone pointed out these threads and the heat they are generating on Cabela's with the returns ?

Either way, I think to an extent they have sullied their reputation to an extent that people will always be wary of Sabatti's.

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quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Eagle One:
From very reliable source: 1) Demand is what led to the occasional grinding technique. This issue is being addressed...no more of this technique

Poor excuse, not acceptable as a reason for using it.
Good to hear it is gone.

quote:

Originally posted by Eagle One:
2) Regulation is the most time consuming part of the production process...

You don't say. Did they only just work that out ?

Piss poor planning if they hadn't factored in the time to do a Proper regulation.


I wonder where the "pressure to change" has came from or ha someone pointed out these threads and the heat they are generating on Cabela's with the returns ?

Either way, I think to an extent they have sullied their reputation to an extent that people will always be wary of Sabatti's.

.

I absolutely agree with 500N, the most important thing in building a double rifle is the regulation! Without proper regulation you simply do not have a workable double rifle.

I'm sure the AR flack on this rifle is what brought on the change in the way these rifles will be built in future. They better do that right this time, or they will be out of the double business IMO!

Hell, anyone can solder two barrels together, but it takes time and skill to solder the barrels together, and regulate them so they shoot properly. That is the step where Sabatti decided to save time and money, and again IMO, it was the most ill concieved move any double rifle has made, and only served to destroy their reputation to a point where they may not recover!

Sad, because they could have left off some of the "PRETTY", and added some quality, for very little added cost!

quote:

From very reliable source: 1) Demand is what led to the occasional grinding technique. This issue is being addressed...no more of this technique, 2) Regulation is the most time consuming part of the production process...need top "grind" caused by 5% increase in demand for product.

"IF" this technique is not being used anymore what do they propose for those that already have it???

Does your "source" have any insight?

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quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
"IF" this technique is not being used anymore what do they propose for those that already have it???

Does your "source" have any insight?

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Sorry to say but I think the insight is "your stuck with them".

My biggest concern would be if Cabelas drop the Sabs from inventory and stop selling them, then who picks up any warranty issues down the track ?

And who will pick up Sabs in the US ?

Do you think Luxus will try for it ?

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quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
"IF" this technique is not being used anymore what do they propose for those that already have it???

Does your "source" have any insight?

.

Sorry to say but I think the insight is "your stuck with them".

My biggest concern would be if Cabelas drop the Sabs from inventory and stop selling them, then who picks up any warranty issues down the track ?

And who will pick up Sabs in the US ?

Do you think Luxus will try for it ?

.

From what I have read on this forum there really is not much of a warranty now. Lot of begging and pleading to get rifles corrected by the factory or importer but mostly the only "warranty" has been a replacement or refund from Cabelas.
Have to give credit where it is due, hats off to Cabelas for that when being pushed

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Have to give credit where it is due, hats off to Cabelas for that when being pushed

Agree. I think Cabelas seems to have come good after the initial hiccups
which just looking at it could have been due to lack of experience with DR's
and a bit of a communication problem.

However, I hope it wasn't Cabelas that pushed for a DR "at a set price".

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Have to give credit where it is due, hats off to Cabelas for that when being pushed

Agree. I think Cabelas seems to have come good after the initial hiccups
which just looking at it could have been due to lack of experience with DR's
and a bit of a communication problem.

However, I hope it wasn't Cabelas that pushed for a DR "at a set price".

.

I remember when Luxus was working on this deal a few years ago and something tells me that had Cabela's not stepped in and pushed them out the story would be very different. They were 90% of the way to making a decent double and Luxus seems to understand what it would take to get the rest of the way while Cabelas is apparently clueless.

Suggestion. Cabelas could hold a charity raffle for any Sabattis left in stock.

First prize--a brand new Sabatti.

Second prize--two brand new Sabattis.

Cabela's has been stand-up in handling Sabatti complaints. I know of no one who has been turned down for a replacement exchange for a new rifle or a complete refund if requested. This has cost Cabela's in time and money. I personally exchanged one and then took a refund on the second. Cost me time and money as well, but what would have happened if Cabela's had not been up front in customer service?

If Cabela's has put pressure on Sabatti, as I and others suggested they do, perhaps we will see a much improved Sabatti DR in the near future. And I predict the price point will remain as is, at least in the near term. Regulation - causing poor shooting - light weight in the larger calibers and a POS recoil pad were the significant problems and can all be fixed if there is motivation. I think there is.

BTW, Luxus was going to sell the Sabatti at a couple thousand dollars more than Cabela's and there was no evidence the rifle would have been any different.

The Sabattis are going up in price. Also 9.3s are coming in the Deluxe version (kickers, coin finish, relief engraving). Now, if they are properly regulated, and regulated WELL.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

Agree. I think Cabelas seems to have come good after the initial hiccups
which just looking at it could have been due to lack of experience with DR's
and a bit of a communication problem.

However, I hope it wasn't Cabelas that pushed for a DR "at a set price".

.

I remember when Luxus was working on this deal a few years ago and something tells me that had Cabela's not stepped in and pushed them out the story would be very different. They were 90% of the way to making a decent double and Luxus seems to understand what it would take to get the rest of the way while Cabelas is apparently clueless.

I agree with Cane Rat on the Luxus thing! But I don't think Cabela's pushed them out, but bought the inventory that Luxus couldn't follow through on. Luxus was the one pushing for the low price point in the deluxe Sabs stating that a double rifle could be built in a deluxe model in serious chamberings for $5000 USD. He canvassed AR/DRSS members to get our feelings on the possible customers if he could make this happen.

Most here told him then that with all the up grades he was listing we were leery of what the quality would actually be at that price point while including his pie-in-the-sky expectations on this venture.

It is just my understanding that when Luxus had a problem; Cabela's just picked up the existing stock, ordering a couple of Cabela's exclusive mods.

It is my opinion that these rifles wedges were simply soldered in a JIG and left at that. When they found that most didn't shoot well, attempted an amateur fix with a grinder only making things worse in most cases. Some buyers were lucky and got rifles that shot well, but it was simply luck of the draw.

All makers use a jig to do the primary barrel/wedge soldering for a STARTING POINT. However the rifles are then fired, on targets, make adjustments to the wedges, and barrel connections, fired again, and so on till the rifle is shooting to the load. IMO the jig part is where the SAB regulator's expertise ended.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
It is my opinion that these rifles wedges were simply soldered in a JIG and left at that. When they found that most didn't shoot well, attempted an amateur fix with a grinder only making things worse in most cases. Some buyers were lucky and got rifles that shot well, but it was simply luck of the draw.

All makers use a jig to do the primary barrel/wedge soldering for a STARTING POINT. However the rifles are then fired, on targets, make adjustments to the wedges, and barrel connections, fired again, and so on till the rifle is shooting to the load. IMO the jig part is where the SAB regulator's expertise ended. [/color]

Very good post Mac.

Also, I find this very interesting.
"Most here told him then that with all the up grades he was listing we were leery of what the quality would actually be at that price point while including his pie-in-the-sky expectations on this venture."


Amazing how some people on here picked up that early that Quality might be a problem.

Just goes to show that you can't cut corners and still end up with something good.

.

quote:

Cabela's has been stand-up in handling Sabatti complaints. I know of no one who has been turned down for a replacement exchange for a new rifle or a complete refund if requested. This has cost Cabela's in time and money. I personally exchanged one and then took a refund on the second. Cost me time and money as well, but what would have happened if Cabela's had not been up front in customer service?

If Cabela's has put pressure on Sabatti, as I and others suggested they do, perhaps we will see a much improved Sabatti DR in the near future. And I predict the price point will remain as is, at least in the near term. Regulation - causing poor shooting - light weight in the larger calibers and a POS recoil pad were the significant problems and can all be fixed if there is motivation. I think there is.

BTW, Luxus was going to sell the Sabatti at a couple thousand dollars more than Cabela's and there was no evidence the rifle would have been any different.

Mike

mike you are a fair upright man, you had a couple of bad, disappointing experiences and instead of you coming out of them with a bitter attitude, slinging out accusations and insults right and left, you assessed the situation and wrote out an honest and fair post. my hat is off to you Sir.

I am not trying to step on any body’s toes, but from reading posts on this site about this subject, I came out with this conclusion that some people for the most part don't care about the facts as much as they care about sounding off their personal and byes opinions.

quote:

Had my Sabatti 450 NE gone over for a second opinion by a very competent high-end gunsmith. Conclusions same as JJ and previous gunsmith: quality metal work and parts, wood to metal good, stock adequate and appears strong due to grain orientation.

many of these rifles have been put through some rigors testing and they still came out smelling good, one only has to read carefully and objectively the thread the truth about my Sabatti 450-400 by doc and also Michael458's comments about the subject.

Good hunting/shooting and God's best.

Malek

I am not sure why everyone seems so happy about Sabatti's "failure". I can almost smell the joy! Here was an attempt to manufacture a double rifle that does not cost $8000. What is wrong with that? It seems that the cognoscenti would dearly love to keep the plebeians out of their sandbox. I for one am not convinced that one should have to pay that kind of money for a double rifle. I have BTW, and while the rifles are a joy, I am not convinced that with modern manufacturing and engineering it should be necessary. There will always be a place for fine rifles. What's wrong with a utilitarian double rifle?
Peter.

Peter

No, not joy, just dissapointed, especially since it was foreshadowed way back when Lexus was looking at doing.

Nothing wrong with "a utilitarian double rifle"
In fact, the more out there, the better.
As long as it is made right and works !


If I or one of the other DR owners buys a DR and something is wrong, it won't shoot etc,
we generally can play around with it to get it going or know our gunsmith already as we have played with DR's before.

A new DR owner doesn't have this base of knowledge and therefore at the lower end it is even more important IMHO for the guns to work.
Then all the owners need to do is concentrate on reloading - or buying factory ammo.

.

I'll bet when the correctly regulated big bore ejector guns come in they'll be as much as $6400-6900.

I have learned a lot about regulation and doubles from this forum. I have appreciated all of the posts on the Sabatti doubles.
I was wondering if Sabatti has used the same technique for all of their double and combination guns as they have used for the one's sold recently by Cabelas or has this been an effort to achieve a price point to make their guns more affordable, which I see as a laudable goal.
Thanks
Bfly

From what information I have, Cabela's will continue to carry and service Sabattis. A very reputable and established DR gunsmith, close to Sidney, has submitted a proposal to do warranty work. Cabela's has too much at stake to be forever linked to a less than satisfactory outcome...and they realize this. I had dinner and talked with entities from both of the above.


Eagle One
NRA Benefactor
SCI Life
SASS Life
DRSS (450 NE, .375 H&H, .45-70)

quote:

Originally posted by Eagle One:
From what information I have, Cabela's will continue to carry and service Sabattis. A very reputable and established DR gunsmith, close to Sidney, has submitted a proposal to do warranty work. Cabela's has too much at stake to be forever linked to a less than satisfactory outcome...and they realize this. I had dinner and talked with entities from both of the above.

Eagle one

So they are aware of the flack that is flying - such as the threads on AR ?

Good to hear.

.

I may just be the first case of Cabelas not doing a stand up job.


I've been in E-mail contact with Cabelas, since I purchased my gun, while I was deployed, and have yet to shoot it. I asked if my gun did infact suffer from the piss poor regulation process, which it seems not all of the smaller bore 45-70's and 9.3's do. Would they take the gun back and replace it, or credit it towards a different gun in their stock.

I was told to piss off.

I've been given a contact at the Dallas/FT Worth store whom I purchased it through, but I'm not holding my breath on Cabelas customer service at this time.

You are not dealing with the right people at Cabela's. Start by asking to speak with the Gun Library Manager and get his name and cell phone number. Also, I think part of the problem is that you haven't fired even one round from the rifle. In any event, Cabela's will do right by you, once you talk to the right person. The word has obviously come down from on high and the person you spoke with didn't get the word. Same as in the military, there is always that 10%.

BTW, Cabela's has no way of knowing if the rifle you purchased has the muzzle regulation issue. You need to inspect it yourself, or have someone do so for you in your absence.

I realize that, its being inspected right now.


What I asked, was simply, should my gun be affected, since its still in the new/unfired state, if they would exchange the gun for a different maker, and credit the cost towards the new gun.


I was told bluntly, no.

I've since gotten an E-mail for the Dallas FT worth store gun library, but I have yet to hear back from him.

If you can get a Chapuis in 9.3x74R for the $5,000 range that has been properlly regulated, why is it hard to believe that Sabatti rifles (proper regulation) couldn't come in for $3,500 to $4,000 on the small frame and $6,000 to $7,000 for the DG caliber rifles?

Call Tom Bryant at the Sidney store.


Eagle One
NRA Benefactor
SCI Life
SASS Life
DRSS (450 NE, .375 H&H, .45-70)

Just so I'm clear........are folks wanting to return rifles they haven't even fired just because of what they've read in this forum?

Cabelas has sold hundreds of these rifles. We have heard about a dozen or so....

Are we victims or "Internet Overblown"

Roy B has hit the nail on the head...big time! We have mass hysteria.

Eagle One

quote:

Originally posted by RoyB:
Just so I'm clear........are folks wanting to return rifles they haven't even fired just because of what they've read in this forum?

Cabelas has sold hundreds of these rifles. We have heard about a dozen or so....

Are we victims or "Internet Overblown"

quote:

Originally posted by Eagle One:
Roy B has hit the nail on the head...big time! We have mass hysteria.

Eagle One

RoyB, and Eagle One, In the first place Cabela’s has not sold hundreds of the Sabatti double rifle because no where near to “HUNDREDS” have ever been made by Sabatti.
Your concerns about folks taking a very close look at Sabatti’s regulation practices because of comments on AR, are surely not something to worry about. There is more practical knowledge in regard to double rifles on AR than the whole Cabela’s company, and it would seem more than Sabatti as well, judging from the way they went about their “SO-CALLED” regulation method!

The people mentioned by me above are not stupid, just, IMO, ignorant where double rifles are concerned! Ignorance is curable, if one chooses to heed the facts given, but stupidity is incurable, even when facts are given, but stubbornly go un-heeded!

……………………………………………....................................... .

Roy / Eagle one

If Remington or Winchester found that a batch of gun didn't shoot and so did a "bodgy" job on the crowns of the guns to make them shoot, would you accept that ?

I doubt it, and i doubt the rest of America would.

So why should we accept dodgy practices in the field of Double Rifles when for over hundreds of years, the proper method has worked fine.

In no way should less than standard practices be accepted. The information I have is that the former practices are to cease and correct protocols adhered to. The Cabela's gun library people are reading thse forums and paying attention. I'd say all of us are doing our due diligence in bringing this to the forefront. I have been in four Cabela's stores this past year, and all of the gun library staff say the Sabattis sell as fast as they can get them. One improper regulation is too many.

Eagle One

Well Nigel isnt it clear it helped the beer money crowd indugle in the fantasy of being the great white hunter while in the deer stand..