Manton 470

11 August 2007, 00:18

470Evans

Manton 470

Here's an interesting one.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun...sp?hierarchyId=10473

Obviously Manton retailed guns from Europe as well as England.

These prices make me glad I have the ones I have!

11 August 2007, 02:23

500N

Check out the gaps or chips in the Wood to Metal fit on the Lockplates.

Looks like it was either not finished well or someone has had the gun apart and the wood has been amaged slightly - which is easy to do.

11 August 2007, 13:52

tomo577

with only german proofs and no english proofs i doubt it was really sold by manton.

should have been marked "not english make"

most likely some enterprising german had it marked "manton" and shipped out to india

11 August 2007, 23:29

470Evans

No, no enterprising German here.

Manton retailed this one, possibly built by Heym. It's the "Manton's 470 Double Hammerless Ejector High-Velocity Rifle" on page 55 of the 1926-1927 Manton catalogue. This one was built in 1925.

It's listed for sale for 1250 R's compared to 1700 R's for the "Manton's Special 470 or 400 High Velocity Hammerless Rifle", which is a Webley PHV1. I have one of these in the 400 3".

They also retailed a 465 or 375 Flanged Magnum Holland & Holland Royal for a 2800 R's and Double rifles by Purdey, POA of course.

Manton retailed all kinds of sporting goods in this period. Their catalogs make for an interesting read.

12 August 2007, 00:43

AfricanHunter

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tomo577:
with only german proofs and no english proofs i doubt it was really sold by manton.

should have been marked "not english make"

It wouldn't have had that marking if it wasn't proofed in England would it?

It seems to me it most likely went direct to India for Manton's sale. Just my thoughts.

12 August 2007, 01:04

400 Nitro Express

470Evans & Africanhunter are both right. These rifles were in the Manton catalogues from the '20s, and even the catalogue illustrations show the German eagle and crown over "N"/Nitro marking persuant to Germany's 1912 rules. Some of these apparently did come from F. W. Heym, and this one is a possibility.

Manton of Calcutta was exclusively a retailer, and used a great many different suppliers, not all of which were British.

Maybe someone here can comment on the proof marks? Bore is marked 11.4 mm (.449"), case length is 82 1/2 mm (3.25"), and bullet weight is 32 grams (493 grains), and Cabelas says it's a .470. I'm well aware that the Germans ususally marked bore diameter as land diameter, not groove, and groove depth varies. Seems like .470 should therefore be .462" - .466", while .448" sounds like a .450 Nitro. Bullet weight isn't precisely proper for either .450 or .470 Nitro. Makes me think that it might be a rebored .450, but I can't be sure. Anybody?
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

12 August 2007, 03:27

R D Show

Could it be this rifle was re stocked, forarm looks to be much older, may be my eyes.

12 August 2007, 06:30

500N

quote:
Originally posted by R D Show:
Could it be this rifle was re stocked, forarm looks to be much older, may be my eyes.

Good point. Foreend definately looks darker.

12 August 2007, 07:15

Showbart

I've handled this piece and it's not offensive in the least.

12 August 2007, 07:27

akrange

Showbart
If you were on the Defensive with a charging Buff ..Ele... Would it do the Trick.
AK

12 August 2007, 09:29

Showbart

I didn't crack it slap it and snap it. I can go shake it out if you want me to. I need to go there anyway.

12 August 2007, 22:46

akrange

Showbart

If you have time..Your thoughts after a closer look..
AK

14 August 2007, 10:29

Atkinson

Doubles are all about English guns most of the time, but a few German rifles are among the best I have seen..I particularly think the Francotte doubles are absolutly fantastic as are some Mantons made in Germany, or finished in Germany and a few that were finished by some old Kraut whos gun shop was smaller than my cloths closet but he could make a perfectly round ball from an anvil with a worn out file. They were masters of their trade. SAme for shotguns. Many years ago I had a Shcigglemilch and something or other and it was the finest shotgun I have ever seen, I bought it for $600 and sold it for a bundle, it had every bell ands whistle their was and was completely finished by hand. what a beauty it was. Not to deminish the English guns, just to give the Germans their due.

14 August 2007, 21:37

577NitroExpress

quote:
but a few German rifles are among the best I have seen..I particularly think the Francotte doubles are absolutly fantastic

Francotte is German???????

14 August 2007, 21:43

tomo577

YES, FRANCOTTE WAS GERMAN !!!

ANYWAY AT TWO TIMES IN MODERN HISTORY THEY WERE.

DURING WW1 AND WW2 WHEN BELGIUM WAS OVERRUN AND UNDER GERMAN OCCUPATION, FRANCOTTE WAS GERMAN !

14 August 2007, 21:44

Showbart

Belgique!

14 August 2007, 21:45

Showbart

quote:
Originally posted by tomo577:
YES, FRANCOTTE WAS GERMAN !!!

ANYWAY AT TWO TIMES IN MODERN HISTORY THEY WERE.

DURING WW1 AND WW2 WHEN BELGIUM WAS OVERRUN AND UNDER GERMAN OCCUPATION, FRANCOTTE WAS GERMAN !

Doesn't count.

15 August 2007, 01:45

577NitroExpress

quote:
Originally posted by Showbart:
quote:
Originally posted by tomo577:
YES, FRANCOTTE WAS GERMAN !!!

ANYWAY AT TWO TIMES IN MODERN HISTORY THEY WERE.

DURING WW1 AND WW2 WHEN BELGIUM WAS OVERRUN AND UNDER GERMAN OCCUPATION, FRANCOTTE WAS GERMAN !

Doesn't count.

Agreed.

I just like reading Old Ray's posts for the humor in them.

15 August 2007, 06:54

Jim Manion

quote:
Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:
quote:
Originally posted by Showbart:
quote:
Originally posted by tomo577:
YES, FRANCOTTE WAS GERMAN !!!

ANYWAY AT TWO TIMES IN MODERN HISTORY THEY WERE.

DURING WW1 AND WW2 WHEN BELGIUM WAS OVERRUN AND UNDER GERMAN OCCUPATION, FRANCOTTE WAS GERMAN !

Doesn't count.

Agreed.

I just like reading Old Ray's posts for the humor in them.

I don't know guys. I seem to recall a quote from none other than the esteemed John Belushi regarding the German's attack on Pearl Harbor. I'd brush up on my history is I were you!

15 August 2007, 07:43

Showbart

Actually Cabela's just sent more of their free money in the mail. That along with our no tax weekend will have me there in a few days groping that Manton again. I'l report back if still there.

15 August 2007, 19:57

surestrike

quote:
Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:
quote:
Originally posted by Showbart:
quote:
Originally posted by tomo577:
YES, FRANCOTTE WAS GERMAN !!!

ANYWAY AT TWO TIMES IN MODERN HISTORY THEY WERE.

DURING WW1 AND WW2 WHEN BELGIUM WAS OVERRUN AND UNDER GERMAN OCCUPATION, FRANCOTTE WAS GERMAN !

Doesn't count.

Agreed.

I just like reading Old Ray's posts for the humor in them.

15 August 2007, 19:58

surestrike

quote:
Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:
quote:
Originally posted by Showbart:
quote:
Originally posted by tomo577:
YES, FRANCOTTE WAS GERMAN !!!

ANYWAY AT TWO TIMES IN MODERN HISTORY THEY WERE.

DURING WW1 AND WW2 WHEN BELGIUM WAS OVERRUN AND UNDER GERMAN OCCUPATION, FRANCOTTE WAS GERMAN !

Doesn't count.

Agreed.

I just like reading Old Ray's posts for the humor in them.

I agree, just don't buy anything from him. The humor wears off pretty quick!

17 August 2007, 06:05

Palmer

by Surestrike

quote:
I agree, just don't buy anything from him. The humor wears off pretty quick!

Don't know what this is about but...

I have sent Ray a lot of money over the last few years and have never had the slightest regret. In fact, I feel privilidged to have had the honor to know and deal with him in my lifetime.

ALLEN W. JOHNSON - DRSS

Into my heart on air that kills
From yon far country blows:
What are those blue remembered hills,
What spires, what farms are those?
That is the land of lost content,
I see it shining plain,
The happy highways where I went
And cannot come again.

A. E. Housman

17 August 2007, 06:24

Showbart

Yeah Ray's AOK. He's a salesman but few of us aren't.

18 August 2007, 01:05

surestrike

Palmer,

Lets just say that I bought a rifle from him that was WAY less of a rifle than advertised!

It surprised the heck out of me but when I started asking around apparently this wasn't the first time that such things have happened.

In any case I'm done with the that sorry SOB!

Fool me once........

19 August 2007, 09:30

Showbart

Well I was at Cabela's and I looked at the Manton again. I'd swear the barrels have been refinished along with subsequent wear after that point in it's life. The bores are dull but not frosty, may just be build up. Going back and will ask them to clean them. The action is tight, the wood has had a full life but looks fine. I don't know what else to report. I know just enough about double rifles to be dangerous.