For all of you searching for a 450/400. This might be a nice one.
http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100015556&string=cid=104

It's a fairly early one and looks to me like a restock. Prices are going nowhere but up.

I sure like those Webley built doubles!

You can be rest assuredthat if it has any problems, Michael will let you know....He has an excellent reputation. (and can fix anything that might need fixx"n)

JW

Yeah, it does look like an early one. Looks like the barrels might be shoe-lump. Sure looks like a re-stock. Assuming excellent bores, that's an awfully strong price.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400NitroExpress.

Why do you say the barrels might be show-lump ?


I think it is an early one as it has a full length file cut rib and a lot of early Webleys had this and then they went to Quater Rib.


Do you guys not like re stocks ?
or is it a case of you like to know who did it ?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
400NitroExpress.

Why do you say the barrels might be show-lump ?

They just have that look. Combined with the full rib, it looks like a pretty early gun. Webley used shoe-lump early on, but transitioned to chopper-lump around 1904-1905. I could be wrong, they might be chopper-lump.

quote:

I think it is an early one as it has a full length file cut rib and a lot of early Webleys had this and then they went to Quater Rib.

Correct. Not a reliable method of dating them, as they were built as ordered, but it isn't a bad guess. The Webley's in my database show that quarter ribs were common by 1906.

quote:

Do you guys not like re stocks ?
or is it a case of you like to know who did it ?

No, it isn't that at all. A GOOD quality restock correctly done doesn't hurt the value of a pre-war British gun in my view. The problem is that, if they are done in the US, very, very few are correctly done, and you end up with another otherwise nice British rifle that still needs to be restocked...and it's very expensive to get it done right here. I know you guys in Oz have Ross Waghorn who does a fine job at a very reasonable price. We don't have anybody like that here.

As I know you're aware, this rifle is a Webley A & W C. While it isn't a 1st quality (Webley's best boxlock DR), it does have intercepting sears and nice engraving, so it's still a high grade model - probably a 2nd. From what can be told from the photos, the execution does look like it might be a nice job, but wood that plain on this model sticks out like a sore thumb.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400

In fact I think the Full length file cut rib
is a reasonably reliable way of dating Webley
and in some ways, other guns.

I have owned / currently own a heap of Webley DR's and if I get the chance on day to ge them all out and line them up by Age, it would make an interesting exercise.


Re Restocking - yep, fully understand.

I think in the US, initially the "oh, it's been restocked" was a throwback to the "Original Winchester, Marlin, Remington collectrs who didn't like anything touched from the original.

It's easy to tell if the restock is good or not
- take it off an dhave a look !!!

Re the "wood that plain on this model sticks out like a sore thumb", I disagree, alot of the guns had wood like that IMHO.

I agree with your Model theory.

quote:

In fact I think the Full length file cut rib
is a reasonably reliable way of dating Webley
and in some ways, other guns.

Not a reliable way of dating from what I can tell...The Webley actioned Rigby .470 I once owned was made in '20, had a full length rib, just like this one.

"No, it isn't that at all. A GOOD quality restock correctly done doesn't hurt the value of a pre-war British gun in my view. The problem is that, if they are done in the US, very, very few are correctly done, and you end up with another otherwise nice British rifle that still needs to be restocked...and it's very expensive to get it done right here. I know you guys in Oz have Ross Waghorn who does a fine job at a very reasonable price. We don't have anybody like that here."

Re-stocking done correctly barely messses with the price nowadays - I agree. Generally the UK stockers are better versed in working with DRs. But, don't rule out some of the stockers here in the US. Considering the shipping and insurance and less options (not being there in person) for wood selection, the US is a viable option these days...Especially when it comes to boxlocks.

"but wood that plain on this model sticks out like a sore thumb."

Yeah a bit plain, but is tight grained, fairly well-colored and straight as an arrow through the wrist. A proper re-finish would make a big difference. Excellent for a working gun!

This is a nice rifle; Ejectors, Intercepting sears and if the bores are good and the "alleged" re-stock is correct, I see no problems here...Hmmm maybe I'll buy it

Excellent discussion by the way guys!

JW

quote:

Yeah a bit plain, but is tight grained, fairly well-colored and straight as an arrow through the wrist. A proper re-finish would make a big difference. Excellent for a working gun!

Jeff

I agree with your assessment of the wood.

Not sure that it needs a refinish though - looks bloody good to me.

Re file cut ribs - and going to Quarter Ribs, I reckon in the Mid 20's but will hav to check my notes.

500N,

I personally like wood such as this on boxlocks...In fact, I think that having highly figured wood on this type of gun does 2 things; 1) looks a bit out of place and 2) increases the chances of breakage.

At the end of the day, those W&S actions are really hard to beat aren't they!

JW

After a closer look I'm not so sure that this rifle has been restocked...Look closely at the images....There appears to be no "proud" wood anywhere.

But, look at the forend and you see a lot of it...New forend? Most likely.

I'd lay odds that this rifle has a new forend and the stock was re-finished at the time it was installed.


JW

quote:

At the end of the day, those W&S actions are really hard to beat aren't they!

Yep, that's why I buy as many as I can
- after al, they aren't making any more.

Re the Wood, both of my 500's hav every similar wood on them as does one of my 450/400's.
All are Webley actions.

Makes you wonder why nobody has resurrected them. (at least not yet )

JW

Jeff

Late 20's they seemed to start to go to
Bull nose ribs that got shorter and shorter.

Ahh that "profitability" thing began to creep in, eh! That combined with the first wave of "Global" demand outstripping supply. The makers were forced to cut production times to meet demand.

My H&H rifles made in the 20s have those annoying quarter rins on them. A real asthetic detractor in my opinion...Looks "pre-fab" = Cheap!

Everybody "ooh-s and ahh-s" over "Between the wars" firearms, but I have found that the "true" bests were made before WW1. The late 1800s in particular.

JW

Jeff

I love the H&H Quarter Ribs with the stipling on the end.

Each to their own but nothin beats the style
of an H&H Royal, Reinforced action and that type of rib.

I agree - some ripper guns made prior to WW1
and some not long after by some of the makers.

Re late 1800's, Webley and Scott (or whatever the name was at that time !!!) made Holland look sooooooooo good.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
400

In fact I think the Full length file cut rib
is a reasonably reliable way of dating Webley
and in some ways, other guns.

It isn't that far off. Most of the Webley's were quarter rib by 1906, but a few full length ribs are still encountered on Webley's from the '20s. With other makers, it still works most of the time, but there are too many exceptions. Jeffery, for example, went to quarter ribs and, as a gimmick that he stuck with (like Churchill's XXV), 24" barrels, very early in the game.

quote:

Re Restocking - yep, fully understand.

I think in the US, initially the "oh, it's been restocked" was a throwback to the "Original Winchester, Marlin, Remington collectrs who didn't like anything touched from the original.

The Colt/Winchester neurosis is insidious here but, so far, the norms in the British gun market have held. What still counts is whether the work was done well or not.

quote:

Re the "wood that plain on this model sticks out like a sore thumb", I disagree, alot of the guns had wood like that IMHO.

Specific to the Webley's, I've seen PHV-1s almost that plain, but not quite. I've never seen an A & W C with original wood that plain.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Re-stocking done correctly barely messses with the price nowadays - I agree. Generally the UK stockers are better versed in working with DRs. But, don't rule out some of the stockers here in the US. Considering the shipping and insurance and less options (not being there in person) for wood selection, the US is a viable option these days...Especially when it comes to boxlocks.

Jeff, who would you use here? I know of three guys, two of which are British ex-pats. I've seen restocks of British DRs by some of the very best American stockmakers - very talented, very expensive, top notch artists by any standard. Impeccable execution to be sure, but still butcher jobs. I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to be able to do British, which is so very different.

quote:

A proper re-finish would make a big difference.

...with LOTS of alkanet root.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
At the end of the day, those W&S actions are really hard to beat aren't they!

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
All are Webley actions.

Yeah, they're hard to beat, and they ended up with all kinds of different names on them, but they aren't just "Webley actions". Popular conventional wisdom dies hard, but the idea that all those gunmakers built double rifles on actions bought from Webley is a myth.

If it looks a lot like a Webley action, but the piece doesn't have a Webley serial number on the BARRELS, if you look closer, you'll see that it actually isn't a Webley action. While Webley provided a few of these to other gunmakers as proven barreled actions "in the white", most were "bought in" from Webley as complete rifles.

Funny how the engraving patterns that Webley used on the DRs that they built and retailed themselves also ended up on Gibbs, Rigby, Evans, Lancaster, Holland, Alex Henry, Army & Navy, etc....all rifles with Webley serial numbers on the barrels.

As to the stock on that Evans, you guys aren't looking at what I am, but I won't go into it.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400


My comment "All are Webley actions" was referring
to the sentance above where I was talking about my 500 Nitro's and one of my 450/400's.


"As to the stock on that Evans, you guys aren't looking at what I am, but I won't go into it."

Please go into it - I enjoy your posts and we never stop learning so sound off.

It does turn out to be an early gun. Webley number is 10,6XX - 1903 to 1904 gun. Pre-1904 proof marks, original full Cordite. Reproved after 1954. Barrels are shoe-lump. Does sound like a fairly nice gun. 10lbs, 6oz.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Looks like a pretty nice rifle...I would have him check the face as I don't like the position of the lever...

quote:

Jeff, who would you use here? I know of three guys, two of which are British ex-pats. I've seen restocks of British DRs by some of the very best American stockmakers - very talented, very expensive, top notch artists by any standard. Impeccable execution to be sure, but still butcher jobs. I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to be able to do British, which is so very different.

Eversul comes to mind...There are 2 other stockers that are no longer taking work from "strangers" (no BS) that will exactly replicate the original proportions and accents and finish...(Names witheld to protect the innocent).

As for this particular rifle; I am thinking that it would be an excellent deal for a guy that was thinking of paying 15K for a recent production rifle...Notch it up a bit and get an investment...

...We all remember when this rifle might have brought 10K...AND, that was not all that long ago!

JW

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
As for this particular rifle; I am thinking that it would be an excellent deal for a guy that was thinking of paying 15K for a recent production rifle...Notch it up a bit and get an investment...

...We all remember when this rifle might have brought 10K...AND, that was not all that long ago!

I agree, although I think the price is a bit over market. It sounds like a nice rifle though. You're right, the market for nice .400s is way up, and finding them is much harder than it was not long ago.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

So would you "hunt" with this rifle? Or is it a safe queen? Would you put a QD scope setup on this vintage big bore?

quote:

agree, although I think the price is a bit over market. It sounds like a nice rifle though. You're right, the market for nice .400s is way up, and finding them is much harder than it was not long ago.

Funny how when a major Mfg'r starts to make ammo readily available how certain calibers begin to "Dry-up"....I reckon that's because there ain't that many out there in the first place. We both know that "factory" ammo may or may not regulate, but that doesn't seem to matter if my observaion cited above has merit.

JW

Jeff

5 - 10 years ago, you couldn't give
a 450/400 away.

Then they started to get popular and people
bought them, and IMHO those that bought what
was out there haven't had them long enough for them to retunr to the market, either as a sellable item or as a trade in on another gun.

In addition, I think that people tend to hold what they have and buy more, not necessarily trade in on another.

And then you have people who just sit on them !

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:
So would you "hunt" with this rifle? Or is it a safe queen? Would you put a QD scope setup on this vintage big bore?

The Webley's are very durable and make great hunting rifles. The rifle that I use the most is identical to this one, except for caliber. They're hunting rifles, not collector pieces. That doesn't mean that they don't increase in value anyway.

I wouldn't scope a .400, but some do.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I scoped my vintage British 450/400 3 1/4".

A 1-4 S&B With illuminated flash dot reticle in claw mounts.
I had had it for several years before I scoped it. I wish now I had scoped it the day I bought it.

On my last safari in Zim I used it scoped to take a warthog and a lion.

I used it with iron sights to take a buff and a bull elephant.

My wife used it scoped to take a buff.

A scoped [with QD mounts] 450/400 double just may be the best rifle for the client to use for DG.

quote:

So would you "hunt" with this rifle? Or is it a safe queen? Would you put a QD scope setup on this vintage big bore?

Don't know about everybody else, but be rest assured that I hunr with everything I own from Purdeys to Stevens 311s!

That's what they're for!

Jeff

With 2 exceptions (1 very small bore black powder), that makes 2 of us.

No safe queens in my safe.