Case-Head separation

30 January 2017, 18:51

Carl Frederik Nagell

Yesterday while training with my 500 NE for my next hunt with Buzz in April, one of my cases separated close to the head. Managed to get it out easy when I got home but I will not be bringing any af that brass to Zim.
It is Norma brass - I guess I have shoot it 4-5 times. This is a first to me. Is this normal? I am shooting a Verney-Carron. 97 grain N140 Bullets Woodleigh and Hornady giving 1960 fps.

Good Hunting

Carl Frederik

30 January 2017, 19:23

shootaway

4-5 times is a lot,IMO.

30 January 2017, 19:44

skl1

I don't think it's normal.

I run 8 (non-maximum) reloads on high pressure magnums like .300 WM and .338 WM without any case head separations or split cases. I think brass ought to stand up to 4-5 reloads, especially with a lower pressure (40K PSI'ish) NE round.

Maybe since a double rifle action has more flex it's harder on the brass, like the Lee-Enfield is on .303 British brass, and so 4-5 is too many times to re-load?

30 January 2017, 19:46

shootaway

I would not trust a third loading in my rifle during a hunt.I shoot full loads.

30 January 2017, 19:49

McKay

Could be that you are sizing your brass too much? Some doubles I have been short on brass and have shot well over 15-20 times on some brass and never had a problem. That being said I have never used Norma brass in nitro calibers.

30 January 2017, 20:10

cal pappas

It would be interesting to weigh the cases and compare to others you have. This will tell you the amount of brass. The heavier cases has more brass and may hold up longer.

In my reloading, I shoot brass until it fails when at the range. For hunting I use only new brass or one reload only. After the reloaded round is shot, the case is regulated to the plinking pile and shot until it fails.

Cal

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30 January 2017, 20:14

Carl Frederik Nagell

Cal
I read somewere that case separation could damage the chamber?

Good Hunting
CF

quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
It would be interesting to weigh the cases and compare to others you have. This will tell you the amount of brass. The heavier cases has more brass and may hold up longer.

In my reloading, I shoot brass until it fails when at the range. For hunting I use only new brass or one reload only. After the reloaded round is shot, the case is regulated to the plinking pile and shot until it fails.

Cal

30 January 2017, 20:15

Zephyr

Like Cal says

30 January 2017, 20:16

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by McKay:
Could be that you are sizing your brass too much? Some doubles I have been short on brass and have shot well over 15-20 times on some brass and never had a problem. That being said I have never used Norma brass in nitro calibers.

Some folks will not use Norma brass because they get head separations with it! I have used Norma brass for years and have never had a head separation even with extremely hot loads in 243 Win brass from Norma.

The key is stated above! I simply only size enough to make the brass tight on the bullet once fire formed in my chamber! There is no need to full length size brass that has been fire formed in you chambers. If however you have been full length sizing I would discard that brass and buy some new brass and fire form it in your rifle and after only neck size it, regardless of brand of brass!

..........................................................................

30 January 2017, 20:46

shootaway

I can't recall resizing at all for the 500NE.
You need to check primer pocket holes for loosness and the overall condition of the brass.
Norma brass is a little thin but it has nice even rim thickness.It seems concentric also.

30 January 2017, 21:32

subsailor74

Norma brass is generally top quality in my experience.....except for the double rifle brass. I had the same thing happen to me with Norma 470 brass a few years back. I was getting head separations at 3 to 4 reloads. Contrary to what some other folks may claim, I have found that i can get at least a dozen loadings out of my Jamison brass, which I consider to be the best out there. It is sometimes hard to find, so if you do find it, I recommend stocking up. I have also had good experience with Hornady brass, but I have heard from other double rifle shooters that have had problems with rim thickness consistency. This has never been a problem for me. The Norma brass in the double rifle calibers is thin and brittle. I would not use it for dangerous game - after the problem I had with it in my 470, I sold all the new brass i had left and threw away any fired brass. So, if you can find Jamison brass, buy it and stick with it. My second choice would be Hornady, but I would chamber every round I loaded before taking it out on dangerous game just to make sure there were no rim thickness issues.

Good luck and good hunting!

30 January 2017, 21:49

470Evans

I have heard of case head separations with Norma brass so I never used it in my doubles.

I have had 8-10 loadings with my 470 using Bell brass with a Rigby headstamp and still going strong. I think I have 300-400 cases, a lifetime supply.

Like Cal, I use unfired brass for my hunting.

30 January 2017, 22:24

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by subsailor74:
Norma brass is generally top quality in my experience.....except for the double rifle brass. I had the same thing happen to me with Norma 470 brass a few years back. I was getting head separations at 3 to 4 reloads. Contrary to what some other folks may claim, I have found that i can get at least a dozen loadings out of my Jamison brass, which I consider to be the best out there. It is sometimes hard to find, so if you do find it, I recommend stocking up. I have also had good experience with Hornady brass, but I have heard from other double rifle shooters that have had problems with rim thickness consistency. This has never been a problem for me. The Norma brass in the double rifle calibers is thin and brittle. I would not use it for dangerous game - after the problem I had with it in my 470, I sold all the new brass i had left and threw away any fired brass. So, if you can find Jamison brass, buy it and stick with it. My second choice would be Hornady, but I would chamber every round I loaded before taking it out on dangerous game just to make sure there were no rim thickness issues.

Good luck and good hunting!

I had issues with Jamison brass.I think the rims were too thick.It is sturdy and thick however.

30 January 2017, 23:08

subsailor74

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
quote:
Originally posted by subsailor74:
Norma brass is generally top quality in my experience.....except for the double rifle brass. I had the same thing happen to me with Norma 470 brass a few years back. I was getting head separations at 3 to 4 reloads. Contrary to what some other folks may claim, I have found that i can get at least a dozen loadings out of my Jamison brass, which I consider to be the best out there. It is sometimes hard to find, so if you do find it, I recommend stocking up. I have also had good experience with Hornady brass, but I have heard from other double rifle shooters that have had problems with rim thickness consistency. This has never been a problem for me. The Norma brass in the double rifle calibers is thin and brittle. I would not use it for dangerous game - after the problem I had with it in my 470, I sold all the new brass i had left and threw away any fired brass. So, if you can find Jamison brass, buy it and stick with it. My second choice would be Hornady, but I would chamber every round I loaded before taking it out on dangerous game just to make sure there were no rim thickness issues.

Good luck and good hunting!

I had issues with Jamison brass.I think the rims were too thick.It is sturdy and thick however.

George - all the more reason to make sure every single round will chamber correctly in your double and bolt rifle before you fly! I do this every trip I make.

30 January 2017, 23:18

shootaway

Yes I agree.When I make some rounds for my double to keep in stock for the future be it shooting or hunting they all need to pass the chambering test.All those that fail our kept separate and marked as such.BTW Admiral, how is the Searcy 500NE rising bite shooting? Was Butch at the DSC convention?

30 January 2017, 23:43

subsailor74

The rising bite shoots width of the barrels at 25 yds offhand - no surprise there for a Searcy double! Butch was not at DSC, and I do not think he will be at SCI this year either.

30 January 2017, 23:48

Smokin Joe

Sounds like a headspace problem. Have you miked the rim thickness on the Norma cases?

31 January 2017, 02:09

McKay

Jamison has been good to go for me all except for 577 brass. They had a bad batch and replaced it for me. This was years ago though. It's been my go to brass for Nitro guns if they make it.

31 January 2017, 21:11

465H&H

Norma made a run of 500 base cases a few years go that were prone to head separations. I had the problem with 470 brass even on first firings of un-sized new brass, I only use it for load development. Hornady brass has worked well for me.

465H&H

01 February 2017, 00:04

bradhe

I bought a bunch of Norma 470 brass back when it was the only thing available (expensive as hell too). I find that the virgin loading is for the hunt, load #2 is for practice, some small percentage of load number 3 will separate, after that it goes in the trash. This is in several rifles with great care not to oversize. Others have had the same experience and the experience with other Norma non-double calibers is irrelevant

01 February 2017, 01:20

Atkinson

YOU CAN'T REFERENCE A BOLT ACTION RIFLE TO A DOUBLE RIFLE. its a whole nuther world...Nothing is the same.

Double rifle brass is thinner as a rule, it must flop in and out or you may get et..Most full length resize cases. if not they can be anywhere from snug to sticky to stuck..I know a very knowledgeable handloader who anneals every time, and his brass apparently lasts and last, I do not..I practiced very little with my doubles, didn't really need to, I just hunted with them using the iron sights.

4 or 5 full power loads in a double is time to stick them in the practice box, or dump them and replace.. They are mighty close to such incidents..the cases stretch a lot and tend to separate..

If you intend to hunt Dangerous Game with your double, always use brand new spanking shiny brass, or factory loaded ammo, you just might live longer.

I load a "bolt action"about 10 to 15 times, anneal every 4 or 5 reloads, trim ever 4 or 5 reloads, when a couple come apart or a couple of primer pocket get lose I dump the whole lot and buy another 100 or two new stuff, its cheap enough to do this..Lot different than operating a double.

01 February 2017, 01:35

Atkinson

Butch won't be at SCI this year. Butch has downsized his operation and is building double rifles himself..no help Im told...I would prefer Butch built my double himself as he is more skilled than anyone I know and his guns shoot little tiny groups..I have owned a number of his doubles..We fight over ejectors, I hate'em much prefer extractors..

05 February 2017, 09:16

surestrike

quote:
Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:
Yesterday while training with my 500 NE for my next hunt with Buzz in April, one of my cases separated close to the head. Managed to get it out easy when I got home but I will not be bringing any af that brass to Zim.
It is Norma brass - I guess I have shoot it 4-5 times. This is a first to me. Is this normal? I am shooting a Verney-Carron. 97 grain N140 Bullets Woodleigh and Hornady giving 1960 fps.

Good Hunting

Carl Frederik

As mentioned. Double rifle brass should be reloaded at full power no more than three times. This has to do with a double rifles chamber cant. The chambers are offset about a degree or so from the face. Which is why you must full length resize your brass every time. When you shoot a double the case stretches at the head on one side just a bit. This is why doubles are so tough on case heads and should only be released about three times at full power.

There is nothing wrong with your brass or your gun.

05 February 2017, 10:08

cal pappas

I guess I've been doing it all wrong since the late '80s.

While I only use new brass or once loaded brass for hunting, I shoot and reload the remaining brass to failure. I get 10-20 reloads out of nitro express brass, 20-30 out of black powder express brass (with smokeless powder), and hundreds out of heavy bore rifle brass. Of course bottle neck cases cut the number of reloads by approximately half. And, I never full length resize as my brass is used in the same rifles so neck sizing is all I do.

Of several types of brass I have used over the years, the old BELL brass is by far the best and I have a good supply for my nitro doubles that will outlast me. Bore rifle brass is lathe turned by RMC. The cases are so thick in the 8 and 4 bores thy have never failed. I have been shooting the same three boxes of 8-bore since 2000!

Go easy on me fellas.
Cal

05 February 2017, 14:24

Andre Mertens

I think there's nothing you can do to control case lengthtening in straight cases, so it's better to play safe and renew cases early. OTOH, a shoulder, even faint, allows for partial sizing and switch headspace control from rim to shoulder. Having experienced early case separation in the past with FL sized cases in my 9,3x74R, I've had no separation since I went partial sizing (all my brass is Norma) . However, I'm careful not to stress the hinge of my double and, contrary to my sizing for bolt rifles, I stop FL sizing just shy of the shoulder to allow the rifle to close freely. Nonetheless and to remain on the safe side, I retire cases after 4 reloads and hunt with 2x fired cases (= 1 reload).

05 February 2017, 17:38

drongo

quote:
Originally posted by subsailor74:
Norma brass is generally top quality in my experience.....except for the double rifle brass. I had the same thing happen to me with Norma 470 brass a few years back. I was getting head separations at 3 to 4 reloads. Contrary to what some other folks may claim, I have found that i can get at least a dozen loadings out of my Jamison brass, which I consider to be the best out there. It is sometimes hard to find, so if you do find it, I recommend stocking up. I have also had good experience with Hornady brass, but I have heard from other double rifle shooters that have had problems with rim thickness consistency. This has never been a problem for me. The Norma brass in the double rifle calibers is thin and brittle. I would not use it for dangerous game - after the problem I had with it in my 470, I sold all the new brass i had left and threw away any fired brass. So, if you can find Jamison brass, buy it and stick with it. My second choice would be Hornady, but I would chamber every round I loaded before taking it out on dangerous game just to make sure there were no rim thickness issues.

Good luck and good hunting!

Interesting subject. I read so much about the quality of Norma brass that I bought a box of 50 in 375 H&H (I know, not a DR case but I my point is whether Norma really is superior. It sure costs more!). 8 of those cases would not fit in my shell holder. I have never had that experience with any other brand of brass and I have used Hornady, Remington and Winchester. Has anyone else had that problem?

05 February 2017, 23:47

surestrike

quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
I guess I've been doing it all wrong since the late '80s.

While I only use new brass or once loaded brass for hunting, I shoot and reload the remaining brass to failure. I get 10-20 reloads out of nitro express brass, 20-30 out of black powder express brass (with smokeless powder), and hundreds out of heavy bore rifle brass. Of course bottle neck cases cut the number of reloads by approximately half. And, I never full length resize as my brass is used in the same rifles so neck sizing is all I do.

Of several types of brass I have used over the years, the old BELL brass is by far the best and I have a good supply for my nitro doubles that will outlast me. Bore rifle brass is lathe turned by RMC. The cases are so thick in the 8 and 4 bores thy have never failed. I have been shooting the same three boxes of 8-bore since 2000!

Go easy on me fellas.
Cal

When you say "failure" what exactly are you describing? Brass failure is a pretty broad term.

Like you I only hunt with new or once reloaded brass. I'll shoot range brass for quite a few more cycles.

06 February 2017, 00:21

cal pappas

In my personal relaoding experiences, failure is when the brass can't be used any longer. In bottleneck cases it means a split in the neck or shoulder and for straight wall cases the head separates from the case.
Cheers,
Cal