Hi Guys<BR>You seem to have a lot of combined knowledge here on the site when it comes to doubles.<BR>I shoot a custom 458 Lott bolt action built on a vector action with a 1:10 twist pacnor barrel. 5 shot drop box magazine and express sights on top.<BR><BR>I am now heading more towards Elephant and dry land hippo and as such am quite interested in a double in .500 nitro express.Which double would you choose out of the followingKreighoffHeymMerkelSabattiVCNone of the AboveIs the Heym, Kreighoff or Merkel worth twice as much as the SabattiYesNoThe Sabatti will get you killedI love my SabattiNo CommentWhich of the Doubles points most like a good shotgunKreighoffHeymMerkelSabattiVCNone of the aboveWhich brand of double have you had problems withKeighoffHeymMerkelSabattiVCNone of the aboveKreighoff offer a 10% PH discount on their doubles.<BR>I dont have a problem with the De-cocker. To my mind it points better than the rest.<BR>We also have a very dedicated dealer who lives in big game country<BR><BR>Has anyone had any of the following problems with a K GunFailed to FireProblem with cocking deviceBroken firing pinBroken springProblems opening actionDamaged stockbad regulationNever had a problem

You need to go to Dallas SC or SCI/Reno. You will get a chance to look at all of the guns mentioned (and more) and make up your own mind what fits your needs and your budget.

+1

Thanks Guys

I have handled all of the mentioned doubles at Adihex in Abu Dhabi, with the exception of the Sabatti.
I shot a VC here in SA in 470 but was not keen on the feel of the rifle, felt very badly balanced to me.

I like the quality of the Heym most.It just feels solid. I did not like the fact that it was so stiff as to be almost impossible to open.

The Kreighoff is the gun that points best for me. It was "ready to shoot" off the rack. That counts for a lot here as we don't have access to dealers or gunsmiths without a hell of a long drive.
I would have preferred the kreighoff to have ejectors

I will handle a Sabatti when I get a chance and see how it feels.

Looking forward to as many opinions as possible.
Thanks
Ian

quote:

The Kreighoff is the gun that points best for me. It was "ready to shoot" off the rack. That counts for a lot here as we don't have access to dealers or gunsmiths without a hell of a long drive.

Sounds like that is the gun you should buy.

quote:

I like the quality of the Heym most.It just feels solid. I did not like the fact that it was so stiff as to be almost impossible to open.

As a long time owner, I can tell you it is a great gun for the money. I really feel you have to go custom to do better. BTW the stiffness wears off fairly quickly with use.

Geronimo

I can't vote in your poll since ALL questions have to be answered and there are no options for "None of the Above". I haven't had any of the problems you list with a K Gun. I haven't had problems with any of the rifle brands you list. Therefore, your poll will not accept my answers.

But, I've shot all the brands you list plus a few others, with the exception of the Sabatti. The off the shelf Merkel fits me like a glove. The extra drop at the heel however probably does translate to a bit more felt recoil. It wasn't a real issue for me though and I had no complaints about my 500NE Merkel.

I am currently shooting a VC 577NE and a Chapuis 9.3x74R. The comb is a bit high on both rifles for my particular build. A scope mitigates that on the 9.3 however. Both rifles are well built but the Chapuis' triggers and safety are really stiff. I like the safety being that way as it is less likely to be accidentally moved to the "Fire" position. The triggers need a bit of work to smooth them out.

The VC is another matter. I find that gun to be a significant step up in quality over both the Merkel I owned in the past as well as the Chapuis. Likewise compared to the K Guns I'm familiar with. I haven't been around the Heym enough to give a comparison to the VC. The only complaint being that of the too high comb. This rifle was built for someone else and therefore doesn't fit me exactly right.

I have another VC in 500NE on order that should be completed sometime soon. This one was built to my measurements. In my opinion, the VC offers the best quality, choice of features, and ability to fully customize the rifle to your specifications for the amount of money spent.

How about adding Vintage English to the choices list?
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Geronomo:

quote:

I like the quality of the Heym most.It just feels solid. I did not like the fact that it was so stiff as to be almost impossible to open.

As a long time owner, I can tell you it is a great gun for the money. I really feel you have to go custom to do better. BTW the stiffness wears off fairly quickly with use.

Geronimo

Agree with all these comments. Everytime I handle or shoot my Heym the more I am impressed with the build quality.

You didn't specify what your budget will allow so I assume cost up to the Heym level is not an issue. So, you should get whichever one you like best since all of them will do the job. I have fired my K 450-400 hundreds of times with no problems. Same for my Sabtti 450, which has a stock drop very similar to the K. No problems there either. But is the K twice as good as the S? No but resale might be better/easier for the K especially in the US since new K guns have all but disappeared here compared to a few years ago. I think that is because Cabelas was the biggest K importer, and they now are heavily into S guns. Stiff opening? You want your new DR to be fitted stiffly to your practice shooting can make it easier to open, rather than the other way around. Oh, if you train yourself to load without ejectors it will become second nature to you. I prefer extractors just like John Taylor did. (but for different reasons)

If you make Dallas Safari Club this is worth your time to examine:
http://bradshawgunandrifle.com..._Double_Rifle_1B.php

"Question:
Which double would you choose".

I certainly understand why you ask the question, the purchase of a double rifle for most of us is a serious and expenisve deal that you want to make sure you get as right as right can be, but the answer to that question is very subjective.

One man's meat is another man's poison !

I waited, (saved), a LONG time for mine and when came the time I chose a beautiful (to my eye) V.C Roundbody action, custom built.

It arrived a couple of weeks ago and FAR exceeded my expectations in terms of quality of build, fit and finish.

I have no other personal experience with any of the others you mention apart from the occasional shot from a client's rifle that comes through my camp and my impressions are that Heym, Searcy, V.C, Chapuis, Krieghoff and Merkle ALL put together a quality rifle in varying degrees of affordability depending on how much you have, or want to spend.
I have previously quizzed owners of all of the above makes all of whome report good service and reliable operating over decent periods of time.

Most important to me particularily in the bigger bores was being able to afford a custom fit so as to avoid a serious belting from a poorly fitting stock.
If you don't want to go the custom route and the Krieghoff fits you best then that would probably be your best option.

As you are familiar with the Lott the step up to a double .500 will be negligable.

Best of luck,

Paul.

I went with the very best that I could afford, a Merkel, and I am very pleased.

Yes, I'm afraid I see problems with the survey (as I do with most surveys) but filled it in to see the results.

Not that I'm saying anyone did this but if one had only one db rifle, one would say that was the best, if only to help sell it some day.

I actually don't have any problem with K-guns (though that was not an option) except the safety doesn't fit the British mould, and that is much of the double's mystique.

Thank you all for the valued input.
I did consider changing the poll but it would then loose all the info posted by others.
I do however see the dilemma posed through the way I put the questions together.

All said, I can see a lot of guys are very happy with their Heym and VC doubles.
perhaps I need to revisit the Heym as build wise I loved the feel of it.
The one I handled felt rock solid.

Thank you all for your comments, I think I will need to handle the top contenders again and then make a decision from there.

Please continue to post opinions or ideas as I will most certainly read anything that comes from the discussion and keep checking the poll.
Thanks
Ian

That should just about cover it....

If you could shoot them, the choice would probably become very clear.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:



That should just about cover it....

One more Jorge!!

I ordered a 450/400 Chapuis from Champlin. If it is good enough for JJ it is good enough for me.

Dug these stats out of an old post.
Quite interesting the numbers that came out of that thread.

Would you say that the Heyms were still relatively new on the market at that stage or possibly not being imported to African countries. The tables seem to have swung around quite a lot since then.

Quite a few PH's carrying K-Guns but not conclusive as to whether this was due to availability or due to the added safety feature of the cocking lever.
Any thoughts?



Originally posted by MJines:
Updating the count:

English/9
Merkel/3 *
Chapuis/1*
Krieghoff/9*
Searcy/1
European/2 ****the above, and below in the list are all European!
Heym/1*

.500/6
.470/16
.500-.465/2
.577/2
.500-.416/3
.450 NE/1

I had a look at a Chapuis and a VC yesterday. They occurred to me as handsome, well-balanced rifles with innovative lock-ups (though neither had a top fastener). Both had weird sights, though. The VC included a moon sight but it made little sense to me because there's a notch at the bottom of the V and the white bead doesn't fit into it. The Chapuis Brousse didn't have a V at all, just a notch in the wide, flat-topped rear leaves.

The only regret regarding my Heym is that I didn't lash out the extra $3000 to get some engraving.

I would consider the HEYM PH with a basic scroll engraving to frame edges.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
Dug these stats out of an old post.
Quite interesting the numbers that came out of that thread.

Would you say that the Heyms were still relatively new on the market at that stage or possibly not being imported to African countries. The tables seem to have swung around quite a lot since then.

Quite a few PH's carrying K-Guns but not conclusive as to whether this was due to availability or due to the added safety feature of the cocking lever.
Any thoughts?



Originally posted by MJines:
Updating the count:

English/9
Merkel/3 *
Chapuis/1*
Krieghoff/9*
Searcy/1
European/2 ****the above, and below in the list are all European!
Heym/1*

.500/6
.470/16
.500-.465/2
.577/2
.500-.416/3
.450 NE/1

I think more and more PHs are carrying Heyms and if I recall the feeling was that the reason the Krieghoffs seemed to be so popular was that Krieghoff offered PHs a sizable discount on their doubles.

I HAVE THE MERKEL IN 470 AND HAVE BEEN VERY HAPPY WITH IT. IT HAS TAKEN A BUFFALO AND TWO ELEPHANT SO I HAVE TWO MANY MEMORIES WITH IT TO CHANGE EVEN IF I WANTED TO.

I am simply amazed that there were 21 reports of problems with Kreighoffs, esp. considering only 21 have responded to the poll. I don't think I would buy one.

465H&H.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I am simply amazed that there were 21 reports of problems with Kreighoffs, esp. considering only 21 have responded to the poll. I don't think I would buy one.

465H&H.

The people who responded did not have a choice and had to select one of the boxes under the title "How many people had problems with a K gun" to complete the poll so the results are not valid. If the poll was redone and a person could select "no problems reported" I bet the results would be different.

I shot a K gun and have never had any problems so I couldn't vote. Your poll is incomplete.

Hi All
Learning as we go.
I have changed the poll to allow for answers requested.
Unfortunately we are now without any of the votes that were put in. If you care to, please vote again.
Thanks
Ian

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I am simply amazed that there were 21 reports of problems with Kreighoffs, esp. considering only 21 have responded to the poll. I don't think I would buy one.

465H&H.

The people who responded did not have a choice and had to select one of the boxes under the title "How many people had problems with a K gun" to complete the poll so the results are not valid. If the poll was redone and a person could select "no problems reported" I bet the results would be different.

You are obviously correct and I missed that!

465H&H

Speaking of how a gun 'points' means very little in terms of the V-C because their standard SxS guns are built to your spec's (dimensions)... having a gun fitted to your specs has got to be so much more important to my way of thinking than how a off-the-shelf gun 'fits'.

People rave about Heyms but a few that I have looked at didnt seem that impressive in their fit and finish.

just a few random comments.. I am only relatively new to this DR business myself, although been hunting around them for quite a while.

Your last question in the poll should have a "No Comment" answer - because the other 'Non' answer implies that the person owns a K-gun and hasnt had a problem. Your other comments above that question also look to slant that poll outcome...

Your last question is flawed too... your comments above look to slant that poll and there should also be a "No Comment" answer.

Thanks Matt
Yes you are right, sorry I missed that.

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
People rave about Heyms but a few that I have looked at didnt seem that impressive in their fit and finish.

Hi, Matt. I'm curious as to what you’ve compared the fit and finish of a HEYM to?

There are a handful of specific points I look at when evaluating fit and finish, and (with all bias aside) I find the fit and finish HEYM to be quite good for the price.

I honestly would like to know what left you unimpressed. We are always looking to improve.

You’ll also be pleased to know that we’re now offering an “extra finish” option that will compete with some much more expensive brands.

Before I bought the Merkel (160AE) I have looked at many DR the end result was:

If you want a boxlock, go for the Heym.
Trigers are fine and the rest does the job.

The Merkel in boxlock has bad trigerpulls.
The trigers are only good on the sidelock Merkels.

The Krieghoff was out of question they not offer an ejector. The DR from Krieghoff is a range gun, trigers are good and accuarcy normaly too. But as a range gun the Blaser is the even better choice.

At the end you must choose, as I have seen there is not that large advantage of the ejector (that gives you a 1/10 of a second when loading the DR), but you will shoot 200 to one shot on the range vis hunt. So therefore the Krieghoff is also not a bad choice.

The VC is about the equial to the Merkel boxlock (sidelock I have not yet had one in my hands)

Gee, I wonder who had problems (real or imaginary) with with the VCs.....

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
People rave about Heyms but a few that I have looked at didnt seem that impressive in their fit and finish.

Hi, Matt. I'm curious as to what you’ve compared the fit and finish of a HEYM to?

There are a handful of specific points I look at when evaluating fit and finish, and (with all bias aside) I find the fit and finish HEYM to be quite good for the price.

I honestly would like to know what left you unimpressed. We are always looking to improve.

You’ll also be pleased to know that we’re now offering an “extra finish” option that will compete with some much more expensive brands.

One rifle in particular sticks in my head. I dont know what the history of this gun was but the action looked cosmetically raw and unfinished. It was plain jane, no engraving and that may have made it look worse too. The wood to metal in the rear of this particular action wasnt well done either. Having said that I know quite a few guys who shoot Heyms and they absolutely love them... I guess I was just expecting more.??

quote:

Originally posted by bunoushcu:

The Krieghoff was out of question they not offer an ejector. The DR from Krieghoff is a range gun
range vis hunt. So therefore the Krieghoff is also not a bad choice.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bunoushcu:

The Krieghoff was out of question they not offer an ejector. The DR from Krieghoff is a range gun, trigers are good and accuarcy normaly too. But as a range gun the Blaser is the even better choice.
Krieghoff is also not a bad choice.

Like Dave said, x2,I have knocked two buff on their arse with mine so far,it is a fine hunting weapon.

I am by no means a fan of Heyms, but my reasons are purely one of taste, nothing more. They just look unfinished and very plain. I looked at them as well as K guns at DSC and decided the VCs were for me.
For anybody to say anything less than they are masterpieces of German engineering, is either a fool or have an agenda, you know kinda like the two who reported problems with VCs.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I am by no means a fan of Heyms, but my reasons are purely one of taste, nothing more. They just look unfinished and very plain. I looked at them as well as K guns at DSC and decided the VCs were for me.
For anybody to say anything less than they are masterpieces of German engineering, is either a fool or have an agenda, you know kinda like the two who reported problems with VCs.

You really think I would ignore your immature comments? Agenda?
Oh sure, I wanted to return a $12,000 VC rifle that looked beautiful but was unregulated and shot a nice tight 8-10 inch group at 50 yards with Hornady factory ammo just so I could buy a $17,000 Heym PH. Where is the logic in that?
Ironic I never had any issues shooting either of my Chapuis's, Searcy or the Heym yet the VC proved to be unsatifactory. Pay attention to the fact you are the one who keeps on resurfacing this subject. Go play in your sand box and continue to be an internet troll.