Why it's best to pull the rear trigger first.......

29 September 2009, 02:02

<xs headspace>

My local gun club turkey shoot had a Running Deer event where you shoot twice at the target as it rolls down the wire. Cool, I got two barrels in my 45-100 home built DR, sign me up! Well being used to double shotgun shooting, I pull the front trigger, and the recoil slips my finger to the rear trigger. Guy running the event says too bad there is no prize for the fastest 2 shots....Damn, and the first shot was a solid 9 on the target stapled to the deer pic. Second shot, I think I saw a small tree fall down behind the wire......

29 September 2009, 06:24

Will

Another convert, eh?

-------------------------------
Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.
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29 September 2009, 06:29

500N

quote:
Originally posted by Will:
Another convert, eh?

No, just someone who needs to chequer the metal of the front trigger to make it less slippery
and learn to shoot the thing correctly.

Then he won't have the problem occur.

Pulling the rear trigger is a poor man's excuse.

29 September 2009, 07:05

stradling

BEEN THERE done that

29 September 2009, 07:38

goshoot

After doubling my .470 twice (that will get your attention fast) I switched to rear trigger first.

29 September 2009, 08:20

dirklawyer

I have shot both ways, they both work for me, I've never doubled a DB rifle. I shoot a 500N.E. that weighs less than 10.5 lbs so the recoil is sufficient for the doubling to occur but the rifle fits me very well. I do believe that most of the problems with doubling are due to improper fit and grip.

29 September 2009, 09:30

Gator1

quote:
Originally posted by 500N:
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
Another convert, eh?

No, just someone who needs to chequer the metal of the front trigger to make it less slippery
and learn to shoot the thing correctly.

Then he won't have the problem occur.

Pulling the rear trigger is a poor man's excuse.

Bingo. Just learn how to shoot correctly.

29 September 2009, 10:01

400 Nitro Express

quote:
Pulling the rear trigger is a poor man's excuse.

Yep. It's just a crutch. Until you can fire it in either order without having to worry about doubling, you haven't mastered the combination of double triggers and heavy recoil yet. Far better to learn it the right way in the beginning.

If you're having a problem, you might try putting the front trigger in the crook of the first joint of the trigger finger. Won't slip off under recoil that way.
------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

29 September 2009, 19:48

Will

Hey, I am stuck in tradition but you guys with the front trigger first are looney. What possible difference can it make to you who pulls what trigger first?

And to say that "I never blah, blah" means it could never happen to anyone, eh?

"I never wound game, I never miss, I am God or so God-like that you couldn't tell the difference, I stopped twenty charges at less than five centimeters (pulling the front trigger first), I got stimulus money to pull the front trigger first, ...."

Yeah, right.

29 September 2009, 19:51

Jeff Wemmer

quote:
Hey, I am stuck in tradition but you guys with the front trigger first are looney. What possible difference can it make to you who pulls what trigger first?

It really doesn't matter to me...But I think that it is faster to run down the stairs than to run up them if you get my drift here!

29 September 2009, 19:51

buckeyeshooter

Why not pull them both at once?

29 September 2009, 20:12

500N

quote:
Originally posted by Will:
Hey, I am stuck in tradition but you guys with the front trigger first are looney. What possible difference can it make to you who pulls what trigger first?

I find it hard to drive a manual car so I stick it in reverse and drive backwards
at the one speed looking over my shoulder while steering.

29 September 2009, 20:53

Will

quote:
Originally posted by 500N:
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
Hey, I am stuck in tradition but you guys with the front trigger first are looney. What possible difference can it make to you who pulls what trigger first?

I find it hard to drive a manual car so I stick it in reverse and drive backwards
at the one speed looking over my shoulder while steering.

Don't you guys drive on the wrong side of the road, or did you rebel?

29 September 2009, 20:54

Sgt Brown

Why not get a single trigger installed and be done with it?

Tom

29 September 2009, 20:58

Will

quote:
Originally posted by Sgt Brown:
Why not get a single trigger installed and be done with it?

Tom

I did!!

But wait. They'll be howling profanities about that too.

29 September 2009, 21:15

BigFiveJack

quote:
Originally posted by Will:
...What possible difference can it make to you who pulls what trigger first?...
Yeah, right.

I have heard that old UK built rifles were regulated using the proceedure of

squeezing the forward trigger fist, then the rear. And, if you squeezed the rear

trigger first, then the forward trigger 2nd several sequences in a row, the heated

up bbls could then throw the bullets "off the mark". I do not know if this is true.

I believe what 500N says about having the triggers checkered makes excellent

sense, and I believe what Jeff Wemmer said about going faster down hill vs. up

hill is also perfectly logical. But I also believe the logic behind the driving band
solid bullets of www.gscustom.co.za is perfectly sound as well.

30 September 2009, 08:15

Jim Manion

quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
quote:
Hey, I am stuck in tradition but you guys with the front trigger first are looney. What possible difference can it make to you who pulls what trigger first?

It really doesn't matter to me...But I think that it is faster to run down the stairs than to run up them if you get my drift here!

Come on, Jeff. Using that analogy on a guy who's a couple slats shy of a staircase just ain't right!

30 September 2009, 16:05

Will

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Manion:
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
quote:
Hey, I am stuck in tradition but you guys with the front trigger first are looney. What possible difference can it make to you who pulls what trigger first?

It really doesn't matter to me...But I think that it is faster to run down the stairs than to run up them if you get my drift here!

Come on, Jeff. Using that analogy on a guy who's a couple slats shy of a staircase just ain't right!

I thought you were dead.

But, oh no. Anyway, I need you around to keep me entertained, like a few, just a few, liberals.

30 September 2009, 20:39

R D Show

The idea of the rifle being regulated to shoot the front trigger first is bunk. It doesn't matter whether you pull the front or back first. I always pull the rear fist for two reasons, first the rear trigger feels more like a rifle allowing for a more accurate shot. second the gun will not whip off to the side as much allowing for a faster second shot. If you don't thenk the right barrel whips more try shooting the left first then the right while consentrating on recoil. Rich

30 September 2009, 22:01

400 Nitro Express

quote:
Originally posted by R D Show:
The idea of the rifle being regulated to shoot the front trigger first is bunk.

Bullshit. Visit a gunmaker some time, or maybe even read an owner's manual.
------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

01 October 2009, 00:09

Jim Manion

quote:
Originally posted by R D Show:
I always pull the rear fist for two reasons, first the rear trigger feels more like a rifle allowing for a more accurate shot. second the gun will not whip off to the side as much allowing for a faster second shot. If you don't thenk the right barrel whips more try shooting the left first then the right while consentrating on recoil. Rich

The laws of physics would take a contrary view. Same amount of force, just torquing in a different direction.

Sounds like this is perhaps more like an issue of stock fit - LOP for a double is generally measured off the front trigger. If you are finding the rear trigger more comfortable, chances are the LOP is about an inch too long.

As for the "right barrel first" issue, at least the Heym owners manual goes into vivid detail about the regulation of the rifle being set up front trigger first - it actually goes so far as to recommend that the second left barrel shot be taken within 8 seconds of the first.

01 October 2009, 00:18

Will

quote:
The laws of physics would take a contrary view. Same amount of force, just torquing in a different direction.

Ooooooooooooooooooooh, now we are a physics professor .... please tell me more!!

Dear Professor,

When the left hand is holding onto the barrels/forend, do the barrels move as much regardless of which barrel is fired?

Please carefully consider your answer, all impotent, I mean all omnipotent, one.

01 October 2009, 00:19

Will

quote:
As for the "right barrel first" issue, at least the Heym owners manual goes into vivid detail about the regulation of the rifle being set up front trigger first - it actually goes so far as to recommend that the second left barrel shot be taken within 8 seconds of the first.

Please tell all elephants that they must charge no more than exactly eight seconds after the first shot.

01 October 2009, 00:25

N E 450 No2

The Chapuis 9,3 has pretty thin light weight barrels.

At and past 100 yards it makes a big difference in regulation if I shoot the rear trigger first.

At elephant and tyical buffale distance it does not make that much of a difference.

One of my double rifles, the 450/400 3 1/4" is set up a little different than normal, or so it seems.

On the Left barrel it says [may not be the direct quote as I do not have the rifle in my hands] 'This barrel is accurate with the sights to 400 yards'

On the Right barrel it says This barrel is accurate with the left to 50 yards.

No doubt this double was probably built for use with India hunting in mind where there are some animals taken at fairly long range in the "hills".

It is a little more comfortable in your grip, to use the rear trigger for precision shots at a distance.

This rifle has a standing leaf marked 50 yards and flip up leaves for 100,200,300,and 400 yards.

I know the leaves are correctly sighted in at least to 300 yards.

01 October 2009, 00:25

500N

quote:
Originally posted by R D Show:
The idea of the rifle being regulated to shoot the front trigger first is bunk. It doesn't matter whether you pull the front or back first. I always pull the rear fist for two reasons, first the rear trigger feels more like a rifle allowing for a more accurate shot. first the rear trigger feels more like a rifle allowing for a more accurate shot. Rich

Then IMHO, you need to set up your triggers better.

The rear trigger on all of my hunting / shooting DR's is set about 1 lb heavier
than the front trigger but both are set to break cleanly.

From memory they are 3 or 3.5 lbs and 4 or 4.5 lbs and all of them feel roughly
the same.

01 October 2009, 00:36

N E 450 No2

The issue of a "change" in regulation is not due to recoil, it is a matter of the heating of the barrel fired and its effect on the unfired barrel.

As one barrel is fired and heats up it uts stress in the other barrel, and the rib.

It can effect some doubles more than others.

Same is true with a Drilling. The impact point may, usually does, start to "walk" around when multiple shots are fired. Again some guns move more than others.

This is why some companies like Blaser makes multiple barrel guns without the traditional soldered ribs.

Next time you take your double to the range shoot at 100 yards.

If you know where your first right and first left hit at 100, [if not test and figure it out].

Shoot 5 rounds out of the right barrel, then shoot a coule of rounds out of the left.

Let the gun cool completely.
Then shoot the left barrel first and then the right/repeat.

Let the barrels completly cool.

Shoot 5 rounds from the left barrel, then a few from the right.

See what happens.

It usually does not do much good to do this test as shorter diatances than 100 yards as up close it does not seem to matter that much, but around 100 yards is where it starts to show up.

01 October 2009, 01:27

400 Nitro Express

Amazing how many seem to think they know more than generations of gunmakers have learned.

quote:
Originally posted by R D Show:
I always pull the rear fist for two reasons, first the rear trigger feels more like a rifle allowing for a more accurate shot.

You're either not holding the rifle correctly, have very small hands, or it doesn't fit you.

quote:
second the gun will not whip off to the side as much

For a right-hand shooter, true. The right lies to the outside of the center axis, so it kicks out as much as it does up.

quote:
...allowing for a faster second shot.

False. The left lies inside the axis, so recoils up much more than out, producing higher muzzle flip, making recovery slower from the left than from the right. Gunmakers long ago standardized on setting them up to fire the right barrel first, for that reason.

That's also why side-by-side shotguns are set up the same way, with the open choke in the first barrel - the right - and the tight choke in left. Recovery for the second shot is faster that way.

quote:
Originally posted by NE 450 No2:
The issue of a "change" in regulation is not due to recoil, it is a matter of the heating of the barrel fired and its effect on the unfired barrel.

As one barrel is fired and heats up it uts stress in the other barrel, and the rib.

It can effect some doubles more than others.

Correct. I've tested reversing the firing order with quite a few doubles over the years. I've never found one that it didn't make a difference. Sometimes isn't much, but sometimes it is. In the field, it shouldn't matter at 50, but beyond that it can, just depends on the individual rifle, and the size of the vital zone.

When precision is required, fire it in the correct order.
------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

01 October 2009, 01:47

BigFiveJack

quote:
Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
...What possible difference can it make to you who pulls what trigger first?...
Yeah, right.

I have heard that old UK built rifles were regulated using the procedure of

squeezing the forward trigger fist, then the rear. And, if you squeezed the rear

trigger first, then the forward trigger 2nd several sequences in a row, the heated

up bbls could then throw the bullets "off the mark".

So it seems I heard or read this info correctly some time in the past, I am

glad that I recalled it accurately.

01 October 2009, 03:27

<xs headspace>

Well, I'm glad y'all worked that out for me. I'm just used to shooting SXS shotguns, front, then rear, as the bird flies off into the sunset. I think I'll just get my trigger finger more into the trigger next time. Planning to go for boar with the 45-100 next month. Figured the running deer event would be good practice. Won a turkey last year at this event, with 2 9s on the 100 yd target stapled on the deer target.

01 October 2009, 03:38

500N

quote:
Originally posted by xs headspace:
Well, I'm glad y'all worked that out for me. I'm just used to shooting SXS shotguns, front, then rear, as the bird flies off into the sunset. I think I'll just get my trigger finger more into the trigger next time. Planning to go for boar with the 45-100 next month. Figured the running deer event would be good practice. Won a turkey last year at this event, with 2 9s on the 100 yd target stapled on the deer target.

That's good shooting, you obviously shoot the gun well.

01 October 2009, 03:41

400 Nitro Express

quote:
I think I'll just get my trigger finger more into the trigger next time.

Seriously, that's the secret.

----------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

01 October 2009, 04:03

Dave Bush

quote:
Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Amazing how many seem to think they know more than generations of gunmakers have learned.

quote:
Originally posted by R D Show:
I always pull the rear fist for two reasons, first the rear trigger feels more like a rifle allowing for a more accurate shot.

You're either not holding the rifle correctly, have very small hands, or it doesn't fit you.

quote:
second the gun will not whip off to the side as much

For a right-hand shooter, true. The right lies to the outside of the center axis, so it kicks out as much as it does up.

quote:
...allowing for a faster second shot.

False. The left lies inside the axis, so recoils up much more than out, producing higher muzzle flip, making recovery slower from the left than from the right. Gunmakers long ago standardized on setting them up to fire the right barrel first, for that reason.

That's also why side-by-side shotguns are set up the same way, with the open choke in the first barrel - the right - and the tight choke in left. Recovery for the second shot is faster that way.

quote:
Originally posted by NE 450 No2:
The issue of a "change" in regulation is not due to recoil, it is a matter of the heating of the barrel fired and its effect on the unfired barrel.

As one barrel is fired and heats up it uts stress in the other barrel, and the rib.

It can effect some doubles more than others.

Correct. I've tested reversing the firing order with quite a few doubles over the years. I've never found one that it didn't make a difference. Sometimes isn't much, but sometimes it is. In the field, it shouldn't matter at 50, but beyond that it can, just depends on the individual rifle, and the size of the vital zone.

When precision is required, fire it in the correct order.
------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Now see 400 Nitro Express, if you had a Blaser S2, you wouldn't have to worry about any of this since the barrels are independent of one another it doesn't matter what trigger you pull first

It just shoots great every time!

01 October 2009, 04:10

400 Nitro Express

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Now see 400 Nitro Express, if you had a Blaser S2, you wouldn't have to worry about any of this since the barrels are independent of one another it doesn't matter what trigger you pull first It just shoots great every time!

Dave
DRSS

But then I wouldn't have a double rifle.

---------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."