Holland & Holland Royal sidelock double rifles off face..?

30 January 2020, 10:27

There seem to be the opinion out there by some that these rifles will go off face after relatively few rounds with full power hunting loads..?? Lets say we discuss 500/465, .470 and .577 cartridges here..

Is this just a malign rumour or is there some thruth in this..?

30 January 2020, 10:37

cal pappas

While any double can go off face for any number of reasons I would guess many who talk of a Royal doing so will state, "I heard it from..."
Cal

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30 January 2020, 10:57

jvw375

Between three friends of mine they must own at least twenty Royal double rifles, from a .240 to a .577. They are all shot regularly, and one particular .465 NE gets shot VERY regularly. The rifle is almost a century old and has never had to be rejointed. I thinks stories like this are mostly based on fairy tales.

Vintage Royals are some of the finest double rifles ever made.

30 January 2020, 12:02

Rockdoc

My 500/450 was delivered in 1906 as was my nice Royal Dlxe 500 3 1/4”. No issues.

30 January 2020, 12:32

cal pappas

And, while I've only owned one Royal, I have owned a few dozen "lesser" doubles and none were loose.

Interestingly, I have owned loose shotguns, but no double rifles.

Cal

31 January 2020, 02:10

470Evans

There used to be a guy on Nitro Express that was kind of a blow hard. He posted on a regular basis that Hollands in the large calibers would come off face easily. He claimed to own quite a few and have experience with many others.

I can only comment on the three Royals I have owned, 2 500/465s and a 500/450. I shot them quite a bit and never experienced them coming off face.

31 January 2020, 03:47

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by 470Evans:
There used to be a guy on Nitro Express that was kind of a blow hard. He posted on a regular basis that Hollands in the large calibers would come off face easily. He claimed to own quite a few and have experience with many others.

I can only comment on the three Royals I have owned, 2 500/465s and a 500/450. I shot them quite a bit and never experienced them coming off face.

I think you hit the nail right on the head, and drove it home with one hit! Blow hard that in my opinion, the guy has never even held a H&H ROYAL!

...…………………………….

01 February 2020, 06:14

Mike_TX

I have a H&H Royal in 450no2 that was built in 1906 and it locks up like a vault door.

02 February 2020, 08:26

sambarman338

quote:
Originally posted by 470Evans:
There used to be a guy on Nitro Express that was kind of a blow hard. He posted on a regular basis that Hollands in the large calibers would come off face easily. He claimed to own quite a few and have experience with many others.

I can only comment on the three Royals I have owned, 2 500/465s and a 500/450. I shot them quite a bit and never experienced them coming off face.

I remember the man you mean. He wrote under some iteration of .500NE.

As I recall, he reckoned some of the bigger calibres (from .500 up) could come off face within 30 shots and blamed their lack of more than a rudimentary third fastener.

I've never been lucky enough to check this out for myself but was surprised when I heard H&H did not want people firing full-metal-patch bullets in their doubles.

03 February 2020, 00:38

5seventy

quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:

I think you hit the nail right on the head, and drove it home with one hit! Blow hard that in my opinion, the guy has never even held a H&H ROYAL!

...…………………………….

So who is this 'Blow hard' that you claim to know?

04 February 2020, 04:23

5seventy

quote:
Originally posted by 470Evans:
There used to be a guy on Nitro Express that was kind of a blow hard. He posted on a regular basis that Hollands in the large calibers would come off face easily. He claimed to own quite a few and have experience with many others.

Yeah that's right, and he claimed that it had happened with the big Hollands chambered for 577NE and bigger.

Is his story true? Well he certainly claimed it was, and also dropped a couple of names who had also seen it.

You would think that any new double which has come off face with just 30 rounds, would have shown that there was a problem when it was being regulated and/or proofed.

It was never stated what loads were being used.
I seem to remember some particular DR factory cartridges around that time had a reputation for creating pressures too high for some doubles.

06 February 2020, 09:06

sambarman338

quote:
Originally posted by 5seventy:
quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:

I think you hit the nail right on the head, and drove it home with one hit! Blow hard that in my opinion, the guy has never even held a H&H ROYAL!

...…………………………….

So who is this 'Blow hard' that you claim to know?

I don't suppose I ever met him, but I seem to recall he was an Aussie, maybe from NE Victoria.

09 February 2020, 02:23

Alec Torres

quote:
I remember the man you mean. He wrote under some iteration of .500NE.

As I recall, he reckoned some of the bigger calibres (from .500 up) could come off face within 30 shots and blamed their lack of more than a rudimentary third fastener....

I have shot Brit guns WITHOUT third fasteners for years. Almost ALL Brit SxS guns use the Purdey double under lug design with sliding bolts. They are incredibly strong and designed to take a great deal of pounding in driven bird shooting.

IMO, third fasteners are 'decoration' and almost never fitted in a way that adds any overall strength to the action. They are, however, an impediment to loading and handling a gun. My 1930 Henry Atkin SLE (self opener) has no third fastener, nor does my 1890s Jos. Harkom. I shy away from any gun with a third fastener.

09 February 2020, 10:48

sambarman338

Yes, Alec, I think one of our English members in the trade shares your views on third fasterner getting in the way.

That said, double rifles operate at significantly higher pressures than shotguns and bending forces can add considerable strain at the angle between the water table and standing breech, hence the necessity of radiusing and the use of bolsters by some makers.

A well-fitted dolls head, crossbolt or rising-bite fastener should help to keep things together. Burrard Vol. 1 (The Gun) goes right into this, starting around p45. He discusses the plain, horizontal 'concealed' extension, too, but doesn't seem all that enthusiastic, even for use on shotguns. Finally, he mentions strengthening the bar to stop it bending. On this point I would commend H&H's use of back actions in their double rifles, whereby the bar does not need to have a girder cross-section to make room for the mainsprings and sideplates.

09 February 2020, 23:50

Atkinson

Royals are no less likely to go off face than most doubles of quality..fact is one shot that's too hot can shoot any double off face, plus more than a few other reasons..Its an easy fix to start with, so no big deal..As we double gun shooters say, "snug it up buttercup!" Well they should say that anyway!

There is little basis to that claim on any quality double rifle if you don't over load it, but hey that applies to a Mauser or mod. 70, too much of some powder can raise havoc..

09 February 2020, 23:55

Alec Torres

quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
Yes, Alec, I think one of our English members in the trade shares your views on third fasterner getting in the way.

That said, double rifles operate at significantly higher pressures than shotguns and bending forces can add considerable strain at the angle between the water table and standing breech, hence the necessity of radiusing and the use of bolsters by some makers.

A well-fitted dolls head, crossbolt or rising-bite fastener should help to keep things together. Burrard Vol. 1 (The Gun) goes right into this, starting around p45. He discusses the plain, horizontal 'concealed' extension, too, but doesn't seem all that enthusiastic, even for use on shotguns. Finally, he mentions strengthening the bar to stop it bending. On this point I would commend H&H's use of back actions in their double rifles, whereby the bar does not need to have a girder cross-section to make room for the mainsprings and sideplates.

I agree that bolsters and use of back action designs make a stronger bar on a gun. The problem with third fasteners - aside from the issue of getting in the way - is that it is nearly impossible properly fit three points of contact in a way that actually contributes to overall strength. And if the hook wears a bit, or the gun is so off face that it must be re-jointed them all bets are off regarding the third fastener. Except on the best built doubles it is unusual to see bearing surfaces on the hook and double under lug locking bolts that exceed 70% contact.

So, theoretically you are right, but in practice I think this is seldom attained.

10 February 2020, 00:03

skb

Better quality British double are joined to bear upon the "circle" more than upon the hook. Either surface, as well as the double under bites can wear with use(lack of care and lubrication), but there is not much that can not be re-fit these days.

I highly doubt the "story" of the really big bore H&H rifles coming loose quickly, they did not end up in the top tier by chance. I am slightly biased in that I have a soft spot for H&H guns and rifles.

12 February 2020, 17:45

reddy375

My grandfather's H&H 375 flanged mag, did come off face! But it was used for 3 generations! And killed many many tigers, leopards etc etc,

13 February 2020, 15:52

sambarman338

As Alec says, getting the third fastener to engage correctly is a difficult job, and Burrard said it was often not done on cheap guns. However, when you pay the money the best London and Birmingham makers ask, I'd expect them to pull out all the stops.

On the other hand, I recall the written words of Jackie Stewart the racing driver and trap shooter. While I can't discount the possibility of product placement, he reckoned the Beretta O/U guns used at his shooting school would far outlast any Purdey or H&H - and he had some of those, too.

That's saying something, as I've heard elsewhere that Brownings will wear longer than Berettas, though the latter are easier to recondition when needed.

20 February 2020, 22:20

reddy375

I grew up in India and in those days everyone used sxs shotguns. O/Us were unheard of. Many of those english birmingham guns were off face - meaning play in the action. I had a H&H paradox and that was also off face. A friends Purdeys was tight as the day that it left the factory! Maybe something to do with it being a self opener.

I think the difference in steel in those days between a $$$ H&H v/s a $$ bsa or midland was much more than these days.

I think the O/U action design is more sturdy than side by side. And for sure all the new guns are much better steel than the old guns.

Also remember all the old rifles we are talking about are now close to 100 years old!