. . . fix for addressing occasional keyholing

The Accurate Reloading Forums

This topic can be found at:
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/760101804/m/1201040722

02 December 2016, 04:31

MJines

. . . fix for addressing occasional keyholing

Just passing this along in case it might help someone else who is experiencing a similar issue. I have English double that has a right barrel that is considerably more worn than the left barrel. As a consequence, on occasion the right barrel would keyhole rounds. I discussed the issue with JJ and he indicated that something that frequently works to address keyholing is the use of a cork wad. So I tried using cork wads on top of the powder charges and the occasional keyholing was eliminated altogether. Just wanted to pass the information along since that was not something I had heard of previously. Additionally, a great place to source cork wads is Circle Fly Wads . . . $11 for 250 wads.

02 December 2016, 05:52

Biebs

Interesting that the cork wads make such a dramatic difference!

02 December 2016, 06:18

MJines

Not sure how or why but it does make a difference . . .

02 December 2016, 07:28

Steve Ahrenberg

My analysis would be OSR...

I bought a 450-.400 3-1/4 from Champlins that did the same exact thing. My problem was I started using .408 bullets, wound up with .411's. The funny thing was, the left barrel didn't keyhole the .408's. Only the right. Are there other choices rather than .510 for a 500?

02 December 2016, 07:46

MJines

It is a .475 NE shooting .483 bullets. So another alternative would be to use .488 diameter bullets (although these weigh 500 grains versus the .483 bullets at 480 grains) and draw them to something like .485. Or swage the .483 bullets. Thankfully the cork wads seem to be doing the trick at this point.

02 December 2016, 17:23

Steve Ahrenberg

Got it. I thought it was a 500NE based on the .510 wad. I'm wondering if like the 450-.400 3-1/4's, there are a range of bullet sizes that chambering was made to shoot?

Just seems the be the exact issue I had. The lesser used left barrel was able to stabilized a .408 yet shoots the .411's perfectly.

Steve

02 December 2016, 18:11

shootaway

When most of my rifles start to print keyholes it's trash time.I would rebarrell if the cost was reasonable.

02 December 2016, 19:00

Todd Williams

JJ didn't suggest breaking out the Dremmel tool?

02 December 2016, 19:13

MJines

That is JJ's preferred regulation fix but this was a little different issue . . . although I did have him go ahead and put my name and driver's license number on the receiver with the Dremel Tool in case the rifle ever gets lost. I guess I will need to post a picture of the cool stock carving he did of a skull and cross bones too.

02 December 2016, 19:50

cal pappas

One gent I knew years ago loaded his ammo with two different bullet diameters. While it solved the problem and was OK for range work, I would have serious reservations of this method for hunting.
Cal

_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________

02 December 2016, 20:25

Steve Ahrenberg

quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
One gent I knew years ago loaded his ammo with two different bullet diameters. While it solved the problem and was OK for range work, I would have serious reservations of this method for hunting.
Cal

Hi Cal.

Was the .475 built with various bullet diameters like the 450 400 3-1/4 was?

02 December 2016, 20:44

MJines

The .475 No. 2 was. The Eley was .483 and the Jeffery was .488. The .475 NE was in .483. That is what mine slugs out to be. The .475 NE and .475 No. 2 are different chamberings.

02 December 2016, 21:08

analog_peninsula

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
That is JJ's preferred regulation fix but this was a little different issue . . . although I did have him go ahead and put my name and driver's license number on the receiver with the Dremel Tool in case the rifle ever gets lost. I guess I will need to post a picture of the cool stock carving he did of a skull and cross bones too.

Did you cerakote it? Cerakoting makes your rifle much more tactical which is what I look for in a rifle.

Inquiring minds want to know.

02 December 2016, 23:56

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by analog_peninsula:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
That is JJ's preferred regulation fix but this was a little different issue . . . although I did have him go ahead and put my name and driver's license number on the receiver with the Dremel Tool in case the rifle ever gets lost. I guess I will need to post a picture of the cool stock carving he did of a skull and cross bones too.

Did you cerakote it? Cerakoting makes your rifle much more tactical which is what I look for in a rifle.

Inquiring minds want to know.

. . . polished nickel.

03 December 2016, 01:50

BaxterB

I saw a little interview with JJ. Made me want to buy a double just so I could do business with him. Seems like one hell of a fine and knowledgeable fellow.

03 December 2016, 02:11

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by BaxterB:
I saw a little interview with JJ. Made me want to buy a double just so I could do business with him. Seems like one hell of a fine and knowledgeable fellow.

He is both.

03 December 2016, 04:59

Rockdoc

Mike do you use a foam wad with that load in addition to the cork wad?

Cheers, Chris

03 December 2016, 05:30

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by Rockdoc:
Mike do you use a foam wad with that load in addition to the cork wad?

Cheers, Chris

No, the cork is pushed all the way down to just slightly off (~.2) the powder and since the cork wad is .510 in diameter and 1/4" thick there is no way for the powder to migrate past the wad.

03 December 2016, 05:42

Rockdoc

Thank you.

03 December 2016, 06:03

MJines

Good to read what Graeme Wright has to say on wads and chamber ringing. For example positioning the wad just off the powder is preferable to right on the powder. Wads are not necessarily ideal but in this case with worn rifling in the right barrel the options are limited, rebarreling would be tragic and the cork wads work great.

03 December 2016, 09:01

Bill73

Mike,
you have me confused,& it's pretty esy to do that

,if I understand you correctly? you are leaving an airgap between the wad & the powder? I have always thought that it's folly to leave any airspace between the filler & the bullet?

03 December 2016, 09:24

MJines

Bal, I can only go by what JJ has told me and what is in Wright's book. Obviously if you are using foam or poly you are going to fill the space between the powder and the bottom of the bullet. With cork wads the testing has shown that if the wad is all the way against the powder you can have an issue. On the other hand if the wad is slightly off the powder (~.2) the tests did not show any issues. Wright apparently also used cork wads with space between the powder and base of the bullet. He stopped doing so but because in the field over time the cork had a tendency to move away from the powder. I may play around with using poly or foam on top of the cork just out of an abundance of caution but plan to check with JJ first.

03 December 2016, 10:11

eagle27

Elmer Keith produced an article when he was Executive Editor of Guns & Ammo called "Loads for the British Big Bore Double Rifles". This, or likely a shortened version of it was published in the 4th Edition of the RCBS Reloading Guide.

Elmer expressed the view that each barrel of a double may require slightly different powder charges to "bring the load up to normal sighting" and for straight sided cases slightly oversized heavy cork wads, usually two of, should be run down hard on the powder.

Now what did Elmer know about reloading

03 December 2016, 14:26

shootaway

I don't know what the cork is doing to stabilize the bullet but I know that a rifle that keyholes will also hang fire.

03 December 2016, 17:45

bwanamrm

Hang fire has to do with the primer/powder/ignition, not the bullet/bore....

On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died.

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch...
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!
- Rudyard Kipling

Life grows grim without senseless indulgence.

03 December 2016, 18:23

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by bwanamrm:
Hang fire has to do with the primer/powder/ignition, not the bullet/bore....

I think that a certain pressure caused by the bullet to bore seal is required for proper powder burn/ignition.I have experienced this with a 7mm Remington mag.As soon as it started to keyhole it hang fired sometimes with quite a delay.There was certainly no issue with my rounds as I have never experienced such a thing during all my years of reloading.It is scary stuff.IMO if you keep on shooting with a rifle that key holes you are looking for trouble.

03 December 2016, 18:38

MJines

George, please just be quiet and listen, the adults are trying to have a conversation now.

03 December 2016, 18:40

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by eagle27:
Elmer Keith produced an article when he was Executive Editor of Guns & Ammo called "Loads for the British Big Bore Double Rifles". This, or likely a shortened version of it was published in the 4th Edition of the RCBS Reloading Guide.

Elmer expressed the view that each barrel of a double may require slightly different powder charges to "bring the load up to normal sighting" and for straight sided cases slightly oversized heavy cork wads, usually two of, should be run down hard on the powder.

Now what did Elmer know about reloading

I have seen a similar article by Ross Seyfried. I will have to see if I can locate the article you are referring to.

03 December 2016, 19:09

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
George, please just be quiet and listen, the adults are trying to have a conversation now.

Jines you are not looking to learn anything.You are just looking for someone to agree with you.

03 December 2016, 19:16

MJines

. . . you learn from people that have something constructive and germane to contribute, not from quasi-trolls.

03 December 2016, 19:30

shootaway

So JJ says to put a cork behind a bullet and it will be OK.WOW this troll is impressed.What this troll has learned from actually shooting out many rifles means nothing.A troll who has no interest in shafting anyone and making them buy an old double rifle.

03 December 2016, 19:31

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:

What this troll has learned from actually shooting out many rifles means nothing.

. . . pretty much.

03 December 2016, 20:31

Todd Williams

Someone's "shooting helmet" screws have worked loose again.

03 December 2016, 20:43

Bill73

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Bal, I can only go by what JJ has told me and what is in Wright's book. Obviously if you are using foam or poly you are going to fill the space between the powder and the bottom of the bullet. With cork wads the testing has shown that if the wad is all the way against the powder you can have an issue. On the other hand if the wad is slightly off the powder (~.2) the tests did not show any issues. Wright apparently also used cork wads with space between the powder and base of the bullet. He stopped doing so but because in the field over time the cork had a tendency to move away from the powder. I may play around with using poly or foam on top of the cork just out of an abundance of caution but plan to check with JJ first.

Thanks for posting this info Mike & please keep us updated,cheers.

03 December 2016, 20:52

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Someone's "shooting helmet" screws have worked loose again.

I knew this bully would show up.

03 December 2016, 22:03

cal pappas

Mike, Todd:
Give up, gentlemen. When George misses his meds no amount of logic will be understood. Remember, his double is the best double in the world (all of us own crap or garbage), and what he says about doubles is now the law. He has the best, he knows the most--there is no way any of us can win!
Cal

03 December 2016, 22:15

MJines

. . . he has got me thinking though. I woke up yesterday with a hang nail. If the barrel wear causing keyholing can result in hang fires . . . perhaps hang nails too. Hangovers? It is to coincidental to just be happenstance I feel certain.

03 December 2016, 23:38

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by BaxterB:
I saw a little interview with JJ. Made me want to buy a double just so I could do business with him. Seems like one hell of a fine and knowledgeable fellow.

They don't come any better than JJ!

.........................................................................

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

04 December 2016, 01:03

cal pappas

I agree with the above--JJ is amazing. He can fix anything.
Perhaps he can fix Shootaway!?>
Cal