Help. VC 500 problem.

03 December 2013, 19:56

cal pappas

Fellas:
When a new double comes into my fold I know the regulated load from published data and what is on the barrel flats. Then, I look to my table of modern smokeless powder formulas to get a powder charge with the proper bullet weight. I back off about 5% and load 4 cartridges. When they print on the target I keep track of the rights and lefts. I should be shooting a bit wide. The next four are 2.5% less and the next four are what I think it should be. Sometimes I have to increase the charge a bit due to several variables such as bore diameter, bore wear, etc., With these steps, I have never had a double rifle that did not print a good target. And, my ammo usage is minimal.

Targets are shot off a standing rest at 50 yards. After an accurate load is reached I never shoot off a rest again except for shooting sticks and off hand as that is what I will use in the field.
But, what do I know?
Just my three cents.
Cal

_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________

03 December 2013, 20:03

505G

Cal

Good to hear.

Bar one gun that had a loose rib, I have yet to have a DR that I couldn't regulate within the same number of shots you use.

03 December 2013, 20:56

Jan Dumon

quote:
Originally posted by 505G:
Cal

Good to hear.

Bar one gun that had a loose rib, I have yet to have a DR that I couldn't regulate within the same number of shots you use.

505G and Cal Pappas , I'm not trying to stir. Genuine question. Have you messed with regulating Sabattis any ? I'm talking about the ones without obvious crown abuse.

03 December 2013, 21:16

MacD37

Shootaway, if you will only listen, we can save you a lot of useless experimenting, not to mention money expended on unusable ammo!

......................................................................

03 December 2013, 21:20

shootaway

I will start my shooting at 25yds and then move up to 50yds.I am going to get used to the sight picture before I shoot at 50yds.

03 December 2013, 21:24

cal pappas

quote:
Originally posted by Jan Dumon:
quote:
Originally posted by 505G:
Cal

Good to hear.

Bar one gun that had a loose rib, I have yet to have a DR that I couldn't regulate within the same number of shots you use.

505G and Cal Pappas , I'm not trying to stir. Genuine question. Have you messed with regulating Sabattis any ? I'm talking about the ones without obvious crown abuse.

Jan:
I have not shot a Sabatti for regluation, only a .450-400 to evaluate for a potential law suit. I have given my recommended loads to a few Sabatti owners and they worked well.
Cal

03 December 2013, 23:06

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:
Shootaway, if you will only listen, we can save you a lot of useless experimenting, not to mention money expended on unusable ammo!

......................................................................

Listen to what?
505 says a rifle will not regulate with one brand of primers and Mac says that it will not regulate with + or - 1 or 2 grains the recommended load.
Cal says that he knows everything about shooting doubles but we have never seen of video demonstration of his skills.
We have no video demonstration of 505's and Macs skills either.

04 December 2013, 00:04

505G

Jan

No, I have not shot a Sabatti for Regulation.
A gun that supposedly shoots well and properly regulated is unlikely to be different.
Now a gun that isn't properly regulated and / or demeled, well, that is a whole new ball game !!!

04 December 2013, 00:09

505G

Shootaway

I did not say it "will not regulate with one brand of primer", it is one factor that might
affect the load used. Some DR's do not like a
certain brand of primer !

And I am pretty sure Mac didn't say what you have written that he said. He said WORK UP LOADS UNTIL YOU HIT THE SWEET SPOT that regulated in the rifle.

Sometimes you can see the holes "coming together" on the target as you up the load.

04 December 2013, 00:29

cal pappas

Fellas:
A few weeks ago I sold a .500 double to a gent in AK. I began with a light load and explained the group would shoot wide. And it did by 6 inches. The second set of 4 shots with 2.5% less powder shot 4 inches apart and the correct load given shot to the sights. He bought the rifle.

I'm sorry, Shootaway, but I do not produce dvds of my double rifle work. However, I am near completion of my next book on doubles. It will be an into book on "how to know and do anything in the world of double rifles." I suggest you get a copy to read and digest. It give you many things to write about when you find fault or disagree with what I've written.

For the rest of you gents, I will put out a request here on AR for your favorite photo of you, your double, and game taken with a DR. If you would like to seem your pic published I will try to include it. Shootaway, if you shoot another cow, use a double and I will publish your pic.

Cheers,
Cal

04 December 2013, 00:33

cal pappas

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:
Shootaway, if you will only listen, we can save you a lot of useless experimenting, not to mention money expended on unusable ammo!

......................................................................

Listen to what?
505 says a rifle will not regulate with one brand of primers and Mac says that it will not regulate with + or - 1 or 2 grains the recommended load.
Cal says that he knows everything about shooting doubles but we have never seen of video demonstration of his skills.
We have no video demonstration of 505's and Macs skills either.

But we all have seen a video of Shootaway's shooting, hunting, and game recognition skills.
Cal

04 December 2013, 00:39

shootaway

Cal,unless you pick up your rifle and shoot it offhand at 50yds very well any book you make means nothing.Everyone can be an expert in their own mind.I am sure you can get people to buy your book for the only reason of trying to be your friend.

04 December 2013, 00:51

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by 505G:
Shootaway

I did not say it "will not regulate with one brand of primer", it is one factor that might
affect the load used. Some DR's do not like a
certain brand of primer !

And I am pretty sure Mac didn't say what you have written that he said. He said WORK UP LOADS UNTIL YOU HIT THE SWEET SPOT that regulated in the rifle.

Sometimes you can see the holes "coming together" on the target as you up the load.

There you go you just said it-you said that it might affect the load used.Did you ever experience this?-I doubt anyone has-not even in the most accurate of benchrest groups.

04 December 2013, 03:44

505G

Yes, I have experienced it.

One DR just did not like anything but Fed 215 Primers. I vaguely remember someone else having
a DR that also liked a particular primer.

Maybe other factors were involved but it was easier to stick with what it liked and get on
with hunting.

Re "not even in the most accurate benchrest groups", my Win Mod 70 30.06 changes point of impact (and pressure) between Fed 210's and Fed 215's so you can't say it doesn't affect rifles.
Going to Fed 215's with the same powder load as used with Fed 215's also caused over pressure - pressure signs and the odd burst primer.

04 December 2013, 03:53

505G

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
Cal,unless you pick up your rifle and shoot it offhand at 50yds very well any book you make means nothing.Everyone can be an expert in their own mind.I am sure you can get people to buy your book for the only reason of trying to be your friend.

Shootaway

You are full of it.

Apart from speaking with Cal once on the phone and a few PM's, I'd only heard of Cal via people I know who he has met and stayed with in Australia.

Now, these people he stayed with, mates of mine
know a hell of a lot about DR's, have probably owned more than most have had hot dinners (they started back in the late 70's when it was hard and unfashionable) and if after these short times they reckon Cal knows his shyte, then good enough for me as they can pick BS by the best.

So when you get 100th of the knowledge he has,
then open your mouth.

Re "unless you pick up your rifle and shoot it offhand at 50yds very well any book you make means nothing."

Well, I know quite a few people who can pick up most rifles and shoot them well unless they are that off fitting wise. Part of the reason for this is people who shoot Big Game Rifle Club shoots numerous different events with numerous different calibres, including borrowed rifles.
Now as we all know, old English guns do not always fit perfectly and most are loathed to modify them, hence you become adaptable.

04 December 2013, 03:57

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
I am sure you can get people to buy your book for the only reason of trying to be your friend.

An experience you are sadly never likely to enjoy.

04 December 2013, 04:01

505G

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
I am sure you can get people to buy your book for the only reason of trying to be your friend.

That is a crap comment.

04 December 2013, 04:56

surestrike

Gentlemen,

We've all seen what shitthisway considers an acceptable group. So is there really any possibility that he'll ever be able to get his double to regulate?

He can't get a single barrel regulate to itself, how do you think two is going to turn out. Holy crips I feel sorry for Butch Searcy this is not going to turn out well and we all know for damn sure that shitthatway won't take responsibility for his negligence and lack of skills. He'll blame Butch.

Once again folks in case you missed it. This (Ignored post by shootaway posted 04 December 2013 00:51) is the only feed back you should be seeing from the northern most moron.

04 December 2013, 04:59

cal pappas

Surestrike:
Sound advise but I can't put him on ignore as it is great entertainment for me. I know many fine folks here only through posts, many I disagree with, but fine gents just the same. Shootaway in entertainment pure and simple.
Cal

04 December 2013, 05:00

DoubleDon

Once again, why do y'all even respond to this moron POS?? Don't you get it yet? He won't. He's totally clueless. Let him wallow in his total ignorance and be done with it.

04 December 2013, 05:02

505G

Surestrike

That is a good point.

being able to shoot a DR that shoots (regulates)
requires someone to actually be able to shoot in
the first place.

In our comments above we have find of taken that for granted as a given !!!

Yikes, lowest common denominator and all that.

04 December 2013, 05:32

Dutch44

Shooaway, you know not of what you speak. Primers, to a benchrest shooter (or any load for that matter)are as critical component as brass or powder. But, please feel free to show us your targets when you work up your magical loads in your Searcy. I am sure Butch will appreciate your endorsement. I would suggest that you may want to stay away from a case full of bullseye....oh, never mind.

Dutch

04 December 2013, 05:51

Mike Brooks

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
I need work on controlling everything.

`Nuff said.. LOL

04 December 2013, 06:35

D R Hunter

Searcy is going to be so filled with regret that I
won't be surprised if he closes down shop and
hunts the rest of his years away under an alias.

04 December 2013, 07:17

Mike Brooks

Actually this might be a huge selling point for Searcy!

" It was declared junk by `Shothiswad' so you know it's gotta be good"

04 December 2013, 07:24

cal pappas

Hey Mike:
If you will buy one or more of my books, I will be your friend.
Cal

04 December 2013, 07:32

Mike Brooks

You're a funny guy

04 December 2013, 08:28

cal pappas

OK Mike:
I will still be your friend if you buy my books and gift them to Shootaway. Trust me, he needs them.
You can post them or give them in person when he spends the summer at your house educating all of us on doubles!!
Cal

04 December 2013, 09:44

Nakihunter

Have you read Graeme Wright's book on shooting the British DR?

You ammo looks like you have not crimped them.

In case you need to pull bullets, you might find this useful. It looks ugly but it works for me - http://forums.accuratereloadin...231091491#8231091491

04 December 2013, 12:20

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Have you read Graeme Wright's book on shooting the British DR?

You ammo looks like you have not crimped them.

In case you need to pull bullets, you might find this useful. It looks ugly but it works for me - http://forums.accuratereloadin...231091491#8231091491

Once you set this die to crimp, the seater plug even at its furthest setting is enough to push the bullet past the seating grove.I need to find another die if I want to really crimp them.As far as pulling bullets,I am not a bullet pulling kind of guy.I leave that task to my rifle.

04 December 2013, 12:29

nickh

My RCBS safari dies in 500ne work a treat at seating and crimping the woodleighs into hornady brass right on the canulure.
Don't know how they will go with CEB's as they are a little longer and I don't have much more adjustment left. Will load some over the break and start experimenting in the new year.

Nick

04 December 2013, 12:33

505G

I don't crimp my loads, including hunting loads
but I make sure the brass isn't over expanded
so it holds them tight.

You said before that the cases held the bullets tightly, this should be enough to hold the bullet at this stage, down the range, not running around.

04 December 2013, 12:56

Matt Moore

Well, once again Shootaway demonstrates his superior knowledge of double rifles but misses the big picture when it comes to advice and the subtleties of properly measuring a target.

I will have you know that due to Mike's advice I avoided some costly mistakes when it came to purchasing a double rifle. I am very glad he helped me and found him to be a reliable source of information.

I have learned a lot from Graeme Wright's books and from Cal's books too. Most shooters in Alaska are very happy to share their experiences. I will be happy to do the same.

Please note that you have misinformed about the terminology used when discussing groups shot from a double rifle. The right barrel shoots a hole called the front hole. This is because the front trigger typically shoots the right barrel. The rear trigger shoots the left barrel so it is referred to as the back hole. The distance measured between the two holes is called the taint.

I am sure Butch will be able to help you with all of this once you receive your double and start sending him pictures of your groupings. Don't forget to measure your targets and let him know that your goal is to have a 2" taint at 50 yards with a 1" taint at 100 yards as your ultimate fantasy for accuracy.

From what I have seen on your accuracy post, your taint was all over the place. Avoid having you your back hole and front hole confused. Make sure you mark them on your target as front hole and back hole before you photograph them and absolutely measure your taint every time you shoot. You will be amazed as your holes get closer and your taint shrinks to only a fraction of what it once was.

Cheers,

Matt.

04 December 2013, 13:44

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by 505G:
I don't crimp my loads, including hunting loads
but I make sure the brass isn't over expanded
so it holds them tight.

You said before that the cases held the bullets tightly, this should be enough to hold the bullet at this stage, down the range, not running around.

Yes they are really tight and the edge of the neck although not crimped is not sticking out.It seems it was slightly pushed in by the crimper.With a hold on the bullet like this I dont think they need crimping.I am going to throw some dummy rds on to the ground a few times to test and see how easily if at all the bullets are pushed in.

04 December 2013, 17:41

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Moore:
Avoid having your back hole and front hole confused.

Impossible to confuse them, his back hole controls his personality.

04 December 2013, 18:30

Dutch44

His back hole is his personality, Mike.

Dutch

04 December 2013, 18:38

cal pappas

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Moore:
Well, once again Shootaway demonstrates his superior knowledge of double rifles but misses the big picture when it comes to advice and the subtleties of properly measuring a target.

I will have you know that due to Mike's advice I avoided some costly mistakes when it came to purchasing a double rifle. I am very glad he helped me and found him to be a reliable source of information.

I have learned a lot from Graeme Wright's books and from Cal's books too. Most shooters in Alaska are very happy to share their experiences. I will be happy to do the same.

Please note that you have misinformed about the terminology used when discussing groups shot from a double rifle. The right barrel shoots a hole called the front hole. This is because the front trigger typically shoots the right barrel. The rear trigger shoots the left barrel so it is referred to as the back hole. The distance measured between the two holes is called the taint.

I am sure Butch will be able to help you with all of this once you receive your double and start sending him pictures of your groupings. Don't forget to measure your targets and let him know that your goal is to have a 2" taint at 50 yards with a 1" taint at 100 yards as your ultimate fantasy for accuracy.

From what I have seen on your accuracy post, your taint was all over the place. Avoid having you your back hole and front hole confused. Make sure you mark them on your target as front hole and back hole before you photograph them and absolutely measure your taint every time you shoot. You will be amazed as your holes get closer and your taint shrinks to only a fraction of what it once was.

Cheers,

Matt.

Gee, Matt, I started to read this in a serious manner then peed myself laughing. Lesson learned is that next time I see a post of yours I will wear Depends.
See you and Mike at the gun show this weekend? Wasilla Menard Sports center on Church Road.I will have Table Sat. only.
Cal

04 December 2013, 18:40

cal pappas

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Have you read Graeme Wright's book on shooting the British DR?

You ammo looks like you have not crimped them.

In case you need to pull bullets, you might find this useful. It looks ugly but it works for me - http://forums.accuratereloadin...231091491#8231091491

Once you set this die to crimp, the seater plug even at its furthest setting is enough to push the bullet past the seating grove.I need to find another die if I want to really crimp them.As far as pulling bullets,I am not a bullet pulling kind of guy.I leave that task to my rifle.

Shootaway:
If I read this correctly, the seater plug pushes to bullet too far down the case and beyond the crimp groove and you are unable to crimp the bullet. If this is so, place a washer between the die and the press. This will elevate the die a bit and your crimp groove will be available for use. Not too thick a washer or your crimp shoulder in the die will be set too high to utilize.

Cal