When you use the toilet paper in the .243 do you fill the entire cartridge with the paper to obliterate the airspace within the casing or do you just put enough to cover the powder lightly and tamp it down a bit. Should it touch the powder and the bullet, be packed in lightly with airspace around the tissue or should it be inserted with the intention of taking up all the space. I have heard on this forum of people using 1 sheet folded up and inserted, and another using 1/4 sheet only. Kind of confused.

Why would you put toilet paper or anything besides gunpowder in a 243 case???

Any filler in a bottlenecked case may result in ringing the chamber at the base of the bullet. I did it with a Red Dot load and polyfill as recommended by a long dead gunwriter. I won't use any filler in anything but straight cases now.

Hodgdon gives a 85gr. load at 2700fps in their youth section. Can't recoil much less than that.

quote:

Originally posted by MichiganScott:
Any filler in a bottlenecked case may result in ringing the chamber at the base of the bullet. I did it with a Red Dot load and polyfill as recommended by a long dead gunwriter. I won't use any filler in anything but straight cases now..

Get some Blue dot and forget the filler. roger

aero

I think you are confusing reduced loads with fire-forming loads.

Reduced loads are intended to result in a bullet with a low velocity. The best way to accomplish this is to use a "bulk" type powder that takes up more space in the case and yet delivers lower pressure and velocity. It is not a good idea to fill the empty space in a bottle-neck case with any kind of material.

Fire-forming loads use a light charge of fast burning shotgun or pistol powder and NO BULLET. The powder is held in the case with a small piece of TP although it's not really needed to develop the pressure necessary to form the case. It's only there to keep the powder in the case while you are enroute to the range or while you are loading the case into the chamber. 1/4 sheet of single ply TP usually is enough.

So, are you fire-forming that 243 or making reduced loads???

Ray

I am making reduced loads. I think I am going to can the idea of any filler since it is too confusing and too many differing opinions.

I have IMR4198 and Sierra 75gr. HP which with a load of 32 gr. I have seen often.

I also have Unique which I have read on here people use with out filler. So lets start off fresh without the filler and get some advise with these powders. Thanks.

If 32gr of 4198 is what you are shooting you do not need filler. At that point the case is over half full. You would have to be shooting straight down and probably then would not see any issue. 4198 is fairly easy to use in reduced loads. I would think you could go as low as 27gr. Full length sizing the brass will help some.

You may reduce recoil but it will only be fun for him if the load you develop is accurate. A rifle that is not accurate will piss off a stump.

I'll have to agree than if you're using that much 4198, you won't need a filler.
I would seriously be quite leery on using Unique in the light load range you mentioned with jacketed bullets. First off, a load that light might easily result in a bullet stuck in the barrel. Then increasing the load enough to get it out of the barrel just might put you on the ragged edge of too high pressure.
Yes, I do use Unique in 4.5 to 5.0 gr. loads in cartridges like the .308 Win. and 30-06. I use them with 100 to 125 gr. cast lead bullets as plinking and small game loads. In those rounds, I do use a 1/4 square of TP pressed lightly against the powder charge to hold it against the primer. To say that this might cause problems is patently BS. FWIW, those type loads are called gallery loads. If I understand you correctly, you're looking more for what is called a mid range load. Your choice of 4198 is a good one. You could also make up loads in that range level with 3031 or 4895. One of those three powders should produce an accurate load.
Paul B.

you can load IMR 4198 with 20 to 30 grains of powder, for a decent reduced load...with accuracy

my recommendation is try starting at 25 grains and see if that gives you the velocity or recoil you are looking for...

If you don't mind picking up some other powders, I recommend SR 4759 or Blue Dot...

I can give you Blue Dot load data, as I have developed that for the 243.. with bullet weights from 55 to 105 grains...

I have not loaded the IMR4198 yet and I would like the Blue Dot load data. I am assuming the 25gr. of IMR4198 does NOT require any filler nor does the Blue Dot. I have decided against using any kind of filler. Thanks.

Listen to Seafire on the subject of Blue Dot. He is the Obiwan Kenobi of reduced loads.

Blue Dot is magical in reduced loads, delivering unbelievably consistent standard deviations and accuracy rivaling finely tuned target loads.

I shot a 1" 5-shot group at 100 yds. last week with my .243 using 22.5 gr Blue Dot, 62 gr Barnes Varmint Grenade bullet, Win case and WLR primer--NO FILLER. 3100 f/s from a 24" barrel.

I can get 3500+ f/s with a case full of R15, Varget or 4350, plenty of the muzzle blast and barrel wear...and I already tried it and the accuracy sucked with this bullet.

I think you will like the bulky pistol powders for this application. Kudos to Seafire on this one.

Great advise guys. That's the kind of help I was looking for. Will give the Blue Dot a try. Thanks to you all who have helped. Wayne

aerostarp

The Speer manual shows the following reduced loads with their 85gr and 90gr Spitzers.

Powder IMR 4198

Starting loads 17gr for @1775fps

Max load 19gr for @2000fps

The Blue Dot load is the way to go. BD is a nice bulky and fast-burning propellant that is easily ignited and needs no filler.

I'd be a bit afraid of something slower like 4198 at low densities. That just seems to be a recipe for detonation IMHO.

Maz,

all of that denotation detonation stuff they talk about happens with powders like 4350 and 4831.. not the faster powders like 4198....

even powders like 4895 can be run pretty darn low...with no problems..

Hello N E 450 No2.:

I have that same manual and made up about a dozen of those loads to test but have not fired them. Seafire had mentioned using about 25gr. with a 75 gr. bullet for accuracy which seems high based on the manual. I have decided to take these apart and follow his advice regarding using Blue Dot - he and other members talk very highly about this powder and I am excited to work with it. Thanks, Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
Maz,

denotation ..

Really , John. Welcome to my "dislexick" world. roger

Then only " filler " I've used in center fire cartridges is Spun Dacron or Cotton . Not in a .243 though . As Bartsche suggested use a shotgun powder as I don't own a .243 not sure of what one is appropriate for it .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
Maz,

denotation ..

Really , John. Welcome to my "dislexick" world. roger

I'm not dislexic... I'm just a poor old uneducated hillbilly is all...

quote:

Originally posted by aerostarp:
Hello N E 450 No2.:

I have that same manual and made up about a dozen of those loads to test but have not fired them. Seafire had mentioned using about 25gr. with a 75 gr. bullet for accuracy which seems high based on the manual. I have decided to take these apart and follow his advice regarding using Blue Dot - he and other members talk very highly about this powder and I am excited to work with it. Thanks, Wayne

wayne,

with IMR 4198, 25 grains is not too much.. IMR's old brown pamphlet, listed 31 grains of IMR 4198 with a 100 grain bullet as maximum...

so 25 grains with a much lighter bullet, such as a 75 grainer, is below max pressure by a fair amount.. my guess is that it would actually be lower than 40,000 CUPs..when the cartridge is rated at like 53,000 CUPs...

you don't need to disassemble those bullets,

if you have already done so, well you'll maybe remember that for future reference...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by seafire2:
I'm not dislexic... I'm just a poor old uneducated hillbilly is all...

Heck, John, You ain't old. roger

I agree with the don't use a filler crowd with the .243...

I also think toilet paper has its own special use and that is not a filler..

A filler should be Dacron, or those nice little plugs from Kynoch...topped with a tad of wax