We have a brand new Sako S491 rifle in 223 Remington. We are going to change the barrel and install one chambered for the 221 Remington Fireball.

We thought of using this opportunity to check how much an effect the length of the barrel has on both velocity and accuracy.

The barrel is 22" long now. Our intention is to shoot it as it is, then cut it down in one inch increments, and shoot the same loads. Taking notes of the decrease in velocity and see if there is any change in the accuracy. We plan to go down to 12 inches.

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www.accuratereloading.com

saeed@emirates.net.ae

Saeed,

Perhaps you could go all the way down to 10", as quite a few pistols shoot that round out of 10" barrels.

If you tried that over here(cutting the barrel less then 16 inches) they throw you in jail!

Must be nice!

Bill,

If anyone asks, I will tell them I am converting it into a pistol!

Seriously though, we do not have any laws governing the length of a barrel here.

Paul,

Ok, I will go down to 10" as you wish.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed,
Do you guys have a lot of other gun laws over there? Do you need a pistol license? Can you own Full Auto weapons?
I am so use to having to jump through hoops to get thing done honestly in NY.

Bill

Bill,

We have such a confusion in the status of our guns laws, no one one knows what they actually are! If you ask 10 different officers, you get 10 different answers!

So, we tend to just do what we think are "allowed" to do.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Just as a guess, but the optimum powder/ bullet combination will probably change with each change in barel length! An interesting project to add to your list of accomplishments.

Tom,

I have decided to use three different powders - just to check what you have suggested about optimum powder for a given barrel length.

The powders are H4198, H322 and VVN 135.

I think this should give us some interesting results.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Here is the velocities we got from a 22 and a 21 inch barrel.

I am going to take another inch off and continue.

20.0 H4198 2771 � 2741
20.7 2881 � 2830 -
21.4 2951 � 2923 -
22.1 3065 � 3027 -
22.8 3199 � 3153 -

22. H 322 2777 - 2740
22.7 2871 2857
23.4 2980 � 2962
24.1 3087 � 3054
24.8 3204 � 3184
25.5 3318 � 3277

25.0 VVN 135 3177 � 3165
25.7 3278 � 3235
26.4 3336 � 3300

[This message has been edited by Saeed (edited 03-05-2001).]

Saeed, what bullets are you using?

Rob,

Here are the components used in this test.

Federal brass, Federal 205M primers, and Brawand 52 grain molly coated bullets, velocity and groups for 5 shots at 100 yards.

I have the groups too, and will post them all together in the next installment.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Perhaps someday we will see a "Saeed's Notebook", something like the the well worn but still facinating "Hatcher's Notebook"

Gentlemen,

I have uploaded the results we got so far on this project.

www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html

I will continue cutting off the barrel 1 inch at a time, and update this page with the results.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Data down to 19 inches have been updated.

www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

18-inch barrel data has been added.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed,

It looks like the velocity is going as you'd expect.

I'm having a tougher time telling the effect on group size. If you have this in a spreadsheet it would be fairly easy to add the statistics. If you don't have it in Excel, let me know and I will re-enter it in my computer and play with it a bit.

My expectation would be that as the barrel got shorter accuracy would improve until the effect of the increasing muzzle blast made it so sensitive to crowning that accuracy would begin to fall off with anything less than a perfect crown.

Interesting.

Don

Don,

Are you aware you can simply select text out of an html table (like the one in question) paste it directly into excel using edit paste special html?

steve

klinkers,

No I wasn't, but it does work fine!

Thanks,

Don

Saeed, how about dilatation and vibrations, when you are cutting down the barrel? I think, when you cut in wrong place, you loose the accuracy, even if it's ten inches or twenty inches long.

I think, if you make a new ten inches long barrel, you get much better result in accuracy, then if you cut twenty to ten!

[This message has been edited by PK (edited 03-19-2001).]

What an interesting test that you have put a lot of work in. It looks like the 20" barrel showed very good accuracy. I have heard some good benchrest shooters are going to 19-20 inch barrels. Short and stiff may be the best for accuracy.

Todd Kindler-Editor Small Caliber News www.smallcaliber.com

Saeed, I can't think of many places where we shooters could experiment by putting a perfectly good Sako under the saw. Thanks for sharing this invaluable data.

Talus

17-inch data has been updated to the Reloading section.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed

Now, if you'd cut your 25/284 down to 20", then I'd know what to expect out of my next rifle.

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Pausing to reload,

Rick

Bigger bullets are better.

Speedy,

May be we can rely on you to give us some data on that short barrel?

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed,
This is all interesting as well as really time consuming for you. I had always been told 40fps per inch and this pretty well goes along.
Sako made a 20" Varmint HB in the early 1960's for 1 or 2 yrs-the 469. Mine is in 222Mag and shoots very well.

16-inch data has been updated.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed

HS Precision should start work on my 25/284 shortly. As soon as I get some data, I'll let yuou know about the 20" barrel. I'm looking forward to it.

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Pausing to reload,

Rick

Bigger bullets are better.

Speedy,

If bigger bullets are better, why are you playing with pipsqueeks like a 25 caliber?

Here is a picture of our 223 with a 16 inch barrel.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed..are you going to have to trim the stock and sheild the scope to get down to 10"? I'd bet that thing is getting to the point of breathing quite a bit of fire as it is now.

David,

I think I will have to take about 2 inches off the stock forend.

The scope is no problem, but I will have to remove the sunshade from it.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed

I thought that .257 caliber was a little on the large side for crows, the neighbor's cat and assorted rodents. Let alone picking flies off of the wall.

As to the bigger bullets, one of my favorite toys is a 45-70. That's just about a cannon for this part of the world. Of course, it's a mouse gun compared to the dino-stompers you play with.

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Pausing to reload,

Rick

Bigger bullets are better.

Saeed

I was wondering how bad the muzzle blast is getting at 17 inches? Is the rifle much louder now than when it was at 22 inches? I was thinking about getting a 17 inch barrel in .223.

Fishnfst,

Yes, it is getting quite loud. I normally wear two sets of ear protectors - one that fits into the ear and one that fits over.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed

Is that thing staring to have a fireball out the barrel yet? Probably starting to look like the battleship Missouri.

OK I changed my signature.

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Pausing to reload,

Rick

I do not hunt to kill. I kill to have hunted.

Speedy,

Not yet.

I like your old signature better!

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed

The reason I asked about the fireball is that a few years ago I sent a 6.5" S&W 629 to Mag-na-port for their mini-custom carry job. Six months later I got back this fantastic little 3" cannon for packing on hikes. Anyway, I took delivery of it in January,(our winter) and headed to the range that night. I hadn't counted on the fact that I was still using loads for the longer barrel (a case full of AA#9). When I touched off the 3" barrel, the neatest column of flame about 15' long and 4' around lit up the area. Two shots and the range master was asking what kind of field piece I was using. I kept some of those rounds. If the bullet doesn't get them, the muzzle blast will.

Is this one better?

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Pausing to reload,

Rick

You are only under-gunned if you miss.

Speedy,

We have a T/C Contender in 45-70, and we used to load it with Pyrodex, and some tissue paper behind the bullet.

Whenever you fired that thing, you see a long flame coming out of the barrel, with an awful lot of smoke.

A suggestion was made that if you get close enough to whatever animal you are hunting a,d shoot it with this pistol, you can have it cooked at the same time!

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Gentlemen,

15 inch data has been added.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

As far as short barrels and noise go, the loudest thing I've ever fired is a 16" 223. With military ball ammo, the fireball was the size of a watermellon. The first time I had it out, a friend was visiting with his daughter, so I let her use my ear muffs, and fired it with just the ear plugs. Even with the plugs in, my ears rang after a single shot. I personally would not want a 223 shorter then 20", and would go with the 221 if short barrels are what is wanted, as that is what it was designed for.

Saeed

That 45-70 and some Pyrodex loads might be just the thing for your next trip to Africa! I read in one of the old hunting books (might have been one of Bell�s) that the natives thought it was the flame of the black powder rifles that killed the animals. They thought that the bullet just made a hole for the flame to enter the animal.

And all this time you�ve, been wasting your time with those new-fangled premium bullets, eh?

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http://www.angelfire.com/ab/fergus