i'm looking for a classic rimless british/european smallbore cartridge.
but the only one's i could come up with was 6.5x55 and .240H&H(i know it uses .245" bullets, but if i choose this one i will use .243" bullets and barrel).

the 6.5 would be great, but everybody got one.
the .240 sounds really fun, but maybe to much case capacity(i'm not looking for a magnum).

it must be able to handle FMJ at maximum v0 800ms/2625fs.

Don't know where your line for small bore stops, but possibly the fine old .275 Rigby(7x57)?

The 6.5 x 57 pre-dates the Swede, is not as common and meets your requirement.

But for esoteric satisfaction, you might look at the 6mm Lee Navy. Semi-rimmed parent case of the 220 Swift. Not exactly British/European but certainly inspired by those early cartriges.

Here are some choices:

6x57 Mauser

6x58 Forster

244 Halger magnum

6x62 Freres

242 Rimless nitro express

Other considerations for something a little different might be one of the Page or Huntington classics. roger

Looking over Cartridges of the World I find the 6X57m/m Mauser one of the better non-rimmed choices. Practically identical to the much more modern 6m/m Remington this baby dates from 1895 and qualifies as a "classic". Everything else in 6.5m/m practically duplicates one another.

Long obsolete and without loading date, the 6X57 can easily be made from 7X57 brass. Standard ballistics aren't known, but F.C. Barnes said "Considering the time and powders available, the muzzle velocity was probably in the vicinity of 2600 fps", and that was with 120 grain bullets! What isn't listed is bullet daimeter, but if I built one of these, it would utilize .243" bullets. Knowing 6m/m Remington ballistics to be respectable, 80 grain bullets @ 3470f/s and 100 grain bullets @ 3100f/s, the 6X57 should do just as well.

Can you get FMJ's for less calibers less than 30? The brass solids are available down to .22, but only in spitzers.

In my mind, the classic European small bore is the 6.5 Mannlicher, but brass isn't easy to come by.

Then again, I consider 7 mm to be small bore, so the 7x57 would step to the fore.

Go Big...6,5x68 Shuler!!

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

quote:

Originally posted by asdf:
Can you get FMJ's for less calibers less than 30? The brass solids are available down to .22, but only in spitzers.

In my mind, the classic European small bore is the 6.5 Mannlicher, but brass isn't easy to come by.

Then again, I consider 7 mm to be small bore, so the 7x57 would step to the fore.

All the military calibers have fmj's available.

Doh!, I forgot, Fjold, that FMJ doesn't imply RN's for game. I have a box of FMJ-BT's in .224" back home somewhere.

6.5x57

5,6x57 that is a barrel burner for yaa...

/C

The Hollands are the 244 H&H (necked down 375H&H from memory)and 240Apex (sort of a belted 6mm rem/6mm06 from memory). The European 6mm would I think be the 6x62 Freres - a 6mm06 based on the 9.3 case and fully the equal of the 240Wby from accounts here.

The 257s were never really popular but there is the Savage version known on the continent as 6.5x52R?

There is a huge plethora of 6.5s but the only historic one that crossed the English channel was really the 6.5x54MS. If you stretch it to present day it's definately the 6.5x55 which is really quite popular now in the UK.

However the absolute definate UK/continental twin is the venerable 275Rigby/7x57. As a proofed 275rigby (no 7x57 stamps anywhere) and with 275rigby headstamped brass you can even use it in France if the law books are to be believed.

Hey! You have a couple of good 6.5s available, the classic 6.5x54mm and the 6.5x57mm. Brass is available for both and there is an outstanding list of available bullets. FYI, I had superior luck this past November with the old 160 grain Hornaday bullet in a 6.5x54mm Steyr.

You cannot go wrong with a .275 Rigby/7x57mm Mauser either.

LLS

I would not bother with either of the Holland cartridges, the "Apex" of the "244". Both, as you note, use "bastard" size bullets and the former is no more powerful than the .243 Winchester and less powerful or flexible than the 6mm Remington.

If you want a classic in what appears an exotic calibre just have your gunsmith stamp your 6mm Remington in its original designation of "244 Remington"!

quote:

However the absolute definate UK/continental twin is the venerable 275Rigby/7x57. As a proofed 275rigby (no 7x57 stamps anywhere) and with 275rigby headstamped brass you can even use it in France if the law books are to be believed.

Oh no you can't. The French are not as stupid as some would like to paint them. Too much "Allo, Allo" and "The Gendarmes" films I am afraid!

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
6.5x57

x 2!!!

quote:

the classic 6.5x54mm ... Brass is available

Doh! yet again. I just checked Graf's and see Norma still makes Mannlicher brass (and I thought it was only available from the specialist makers).

I'll repeat my vote for the M-S. Bell used it on elephants, and Whelen spoke well of it for use in North America. What more of a pedigree could one want?

Well, Steffen, it looks like you are being moved into the 6.5 catagory whether you like it or not. I thought of another not too common 6mm and that is the Lee. Stay the course old buddy and go 6mm. roger

6.5 303 or 6-303 or 25-303 all good and easy to make from mil surp 303 cases

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

Oh no you can't. The French are not as stupid as some would like to paint them. Too much "Allo, Allo" and "The Gendarmes" films I am afraid!

At the risk of aping panto oh yes you can. We went into this in some detail a while back with a member posting the French schedule of calibres considered as military. 275 rigby was not on it. The SAAMI and CIP specs were reported as subtly different. Providing your ammunition, rifle and certificates do not have any mention of 7x57 anywhere, then, to the letter of the law we agreed it was legal albeit with a slight risk of mis interpretation by some border official.

.257 Roberts

6x57 mauser, this is a little known German cartridge that apparently dates back to around 1895. from COW

Re 7x57/275 Rigby: I did ask in a number of French gunshops about this, and to a native born English employee in one of them who had been in France for many years. All said "non"! I've also checked the text, posted here, of the law as written:

We in UK will speak of French Law "prohibiting military calibre weapons" but in the strict interpretation and as the law actually applies in France we are incorrect.

This is a subtle difference in the wording but one that by its ACTUAL WORDING prohibits rifles capable of firing ammunition used in military weapons. The interpretation is NOT what it is chambered in but what it is capable of firing.


http://www.armes-ufa.org/ufa/reglo_france/base.asp

The law is I am led to believe "pouvant tirer des munitions utilisables dans des armes classées matériel de guerre" in other words able to fire ammunition usable in weapons classed as military arms, and not what it is stamped on the barrel.


For this reason when ex-military arms are sold in France the barrel is always turned back to give a short chamber AND NOT REAMED OUT TO THE "IMPROVED" (P.O. ACKLEY or ELLWOOD EPPS) VERSION.

Thus .30-06 "COURT" (or SHORT) and 303 "SPORTING" are permitted. These are rifles where the barrel has been turned back a revolution and the chamber is effectively shortened Whereas rifles re-cahmbered to the .30-06 Ackley Improved or .303 Epps are illegal as they are still capable of (like the K-Hornet) and actually designed to still safely fire the as original parent cartridge.

Just like the .275 Rigby in other words.

It would be worth maybe contacting the French Consulate in London for a letter on this but I do beg to differ, sadly, with "1894MK2" on this.

I do know that it is now not possible to get 275 headstamped brass...certainly Roberts didn't have any in his last years as "Mr Rigby". I don't know what the new owners have available in brass.

I would be delighted to be shown to be wrong however!