Guys I could use some advice on some issues I'm having with a tang safety Ruger M77 varmint chambered in 6mm Remington.

This gun is in really great shape, especially for its age, and I acquired it from a cousin of mine because he couldn't get it to shoot. The best I could get to do was 1.5"-2" at 100yrds. So I floated the barrel and glass/pillar bedded the stock. Went to my go to load of an 87gr Hornady spire point and 46.0 grains of IMR 4350 and was quite relieved by the difference. I've since tried the 87gr V-max as well as H4350 and Varget as seen in the photos.

My problem is this, out of four shots, one will always be a flyer, always, and its either 2, 3, or 4, never 1. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. This is with once fired, full length sized, trimmed and chamfered Remington Brass and Winchester large rifle primers. COAL is 2.825".

Any thoughts?

How many rounds through it?
It may need to be cleaned every few rounds for a while. Look in the muzzle and see how much of the bluing is left in the grooves.
Some barrels may take 100 rounds or until the middle half of the bluing in the grooves is gone before they shoot well.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
How many rounds through it?
It may need to be cleaned every few rounds for a while. Look in the muzzle and see how much of the bluing is left in the grooves.
Some barrels may take 100 rounds or until the middle half of the bluing in the grooves is gone before they shoot well.

Tough to say on the round count, I don't remember when Ruger quit with the tang safety. I know my cousin cleaned it before he started working with it. I know I've put more than 100 rounds through it myself, but since I was thinking along those same lines, its in the vice right now with a solvent wet bore.

There are 3 things I always do to tang safety Rugers when they come in the shop with accuracy issues.
Bed
Touch up the crown
Change the main spring- many of the older Rugers have a weak main spring which causes erratic ignition- thus poor accuracy.
Have you done a run out on the fired brass, resized brass, and loaded round?

Mark the cases from the flyers and shoot groups with the same 5 cases and see if the same case always does it.

Often great groups but for a flyer are because of movement - i.e. a bedding problem.

fire only 3 shot grooups

The early Ruger 77's had "outsourced" barrels, some of which were simply not up to the standards that they should have been. There were lots of complaints about them initally until Ruger finally worked out their problems by either going to a new supplier or making the barrels in-house.

It's tough to give up on a nice-looking gun, but if the barrel is a dog, then you'll need to take some significant steps (like either rebarreling or selling.) Unless the trigger, which was very mediocre on early Rugers has been reworked or replaced, I think I would send the rifle on down the road.

Four tight and a flyer is probably not a barrel. It is usually something as noted above, either a springor firing pin drag causing inconsistent ignition or lock time, or a case/component related problem.

As a check, buy a box of quality factory rounds, and fire four groups. If they are all consistent (don't worry about actual size), it is likely a component or reloading issue. If they exhibit flyers in all the groups, check the bolt, firing pin, and trigger.

Thanks for all the replies. I'm no gunsmith, but I've done enough bedding jobs prior to this one that I'm pretty confident its not a bedding issue. I forgot to mention in my first posting that I did address the trigger issue. Replaced the sear with a Rifle Basix 14oz-2lbs sear. Probably the best "inexpensive" improvement I've ever made to any firearms. Still a little creepy, but night and day difference.

I don't think the barrel is an issue, it groups the ones it does put together too well. I've probably shot a dozen groups that all look like the posted photos. All with different pieces of brass from the same lot that had been fired one time before. What are the odds of getting just one bad component, every single time, that many times in a row? I don't have a concentricy guage, but it on the list next time I make an order for supplies.

I cleaned the bore till I was getting copper free patches, swapped the 6-18 Leupold for a proven 4-12 Leupold, and fired this group this morning. New Rem brass, FL sized, trimmed, chamfered, and flash holes uniformed (this is my normal brass prep), Winchester large rifle primer, 42.5grs of H4350, and a 100gr Sierra Gameking.

When Ed Harris worked for Ruger he experimented with the .243 and the 6mm. IIRC he had four different rifles in each chambering made up and found that the .243 always out-shot the 6mm. He narrowed it down to the throating differences in the SAAMI chambers. When he had a .243 SAAMI throat cut into the 6mm barrel, both chamberings shot the same. The OP's problem could very well be in the barrel.



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Change your primers

This weekend I did an experiment. Shot a group with two different lots of brass, same brand, just differnet lots. They grouped in different spots. Is it possible you are shooting a mixed lot of brass?

How are you sizing the brass?

I have found several examples where my rifles shoot full length sized brass (excessive headspace) poorly. New brass won't group worth a darn in those rifles and there are fliers.

Maybe try neck sized brass?

How consistent is your seating depth measured with a comparator? If you are close to kissing the lands or a slight touch, a small variation means a big difference. If you are jumping a bit then in my experience it's less of an issue.

Anyhow, just some more ideas... by the way, remedy them one at a time if you try something or you will simply never know what fixed it! Always nice to know.

Good luck.

One of the things I found by accident, was not allowing the trigger guard or the forward latch cover lug to make contact with the magazine box.

It is snapped into the bottom of the action (wich is normal), but it is "floating" on the bottom, held there with just a bit of RTV at each corner.

Once I did that my groups tighted up significantly and all fliers went away.

It to was a 6mm at one time, but I had it rebarelled to a 243 AI. The new barrel helped, but the tip about the magazine is what turned that gun into a real shooter.

My Rem BDL won't do well with 4350's. My best load is RL17 46.7gr Fed210M and Berger 80gr.The Fed210M always shot best with whatever powder I tried maybe just a primer change will do it. Two other powders that have done well in Hornady 87gr bullets are RL19 and H4831

I have a 1975 M77 6mm Varmit that shoots about like most other .243s and 6mms that I have owned.
I got good groups right off the bat with the 85grn BTHP. Today I would start off looing for a varmint load with IMR4350 or IMR4064 and the Nosler 80grn Ballistic Tip. I much prefer the Fed 210 primer. I full lenght size my brass but only to a light drag to .002 clearance using the Stony point tool on the shoulder.

The best groups I have gotten with hunting weight rifles is with the 100grn Hornady flat base bullet and AA4350. When I use up my current supply of AA4350 I am going back to IMR4350.

I have a fairly new 6MM AI and mine did about the same thing until I broke the barrel in. I had close to 175 rounds before I lost the flier. The barrel is a Shilen SS #4. I am still fire forming brass and even with factory loads, it shoots a good tight 4 shoot group, cover with a quarter, without the fliers (as well as a few pigs).

.2 cents worth.

Thirty years ago I had a lot of tang safety Rugers brought to me because they would not group well. With a 5 shot group either one or sometimes two shots would be way out of the group. I would glass bed, pillar bed, recrown, tune the triggers, lap the scope rings etc. etc. Sometimes they would respond but a big percentage of them would not improve to any significant degree. The only thing that would cure the recalcitrant ones was a new barrel. I was told by reliable sources that Ruger was paying approximately $11.00 for the out sourced barrels in those days.

Try what ever cure you like but one thing you can count on for sure, if a skilled gunsmith rebarrels it with a quality barrel it will shoot so well that all thoughts of money spent will disappear.............along with the fliers.

Craftsman,
I had a friend that once worked for the barrel maker Wiseman in College Station that took over McMillan's barrel business. He said a couple of Browning reps laughed at what they (Wiseman) charged for a barrel. I think he said they (Browning) paid $10 or $12 for a barrel about 20 or 25 years ago.

SR4759

I bet the Browning reps werent kidding either.

Also during this same time frame I approached a well know Texas barrel maker about the Ruger accuracy issues and they told me that Ruger barrels were also .001 to .002 oversize bores. This was in theory to make the gun safer in event of an accidental over load.I had a customer bring me a Ruger No. 1 in 25-06 with the action frozen up. I pulled the barrel and discovered he had fired a .308 round in it. I reinstalled the barrel, headspace measured minimum and test fired it. I could not find any damage. Now that was one strong action. Maybe the oversize bore was a factor, who knows.

Marshmandan

Not many people are aware, Ruger will rebarrel your rifle for a very reasonable fee. It has to be in original caliber. All their barrels are very accurate now since they are manufacuring them inhouse with their own hammer forging equipment.

Interesting you mention that about Ruger doing the re-barrel as I have to call them tomorrow to get a barrel band for a 44 Automag carbine I'm duracoating for a friend of mine. I'll be sure to inquire about the process/cost should the need arise.

I knew when I bought the gun needing a re-barrel would be a distinct possibility, but the challenge of getting it to shoot is half the fun.....

Thus far I've got $300 in the rifle and rings, which I've seen similar condition ones go for a bit more, $16 in Marine-tex, $13 in aluminum pillars, $37 in a trigger sear, and $11 in a Tubb spring, which I hope is sitting at my house awaiting my return for installation. This working out of town five days a weeks is putting a major kink in my projects.

If it works great, if not I've got an action and a decent trigger to build off of.

I'll have to look into the mag box trick. Usually I try to make one modification at a time to see how much improvement each makes.

I know you say you've bedded a few rifles before, but I do understand (secondhand info) that the angled front screw and lug can be a challenge. Moreso than on more "conventional" designs.

Due to these issues, I have never even considered owning a Ruger rifle. Have they corrected the problems with barrels etc. that have given them a poor reputation over the years?

The only way I've ever found to fix a Ruger is to trade it off.......for a decent rifle...

Seriously however.....your groups aren't all that bad

There is no such thing as a flyer.....it's simply part of the grpup.....shoot a 10-shot group and see for yourself!

I guess I got lucky: several years ago I was looking for a rifle big enough for my son to take to Idaho on an elk hunt. I found a tang safety M77 in 7RM. With 79 grains of AA 8700 behind the original Nosler Solid Base 162s seated .010" off the lands it shoots to one hole at 100. Repeatedly...

My Ruger 77V in 6mm shoots great with only a trigger job. It likes 47gr IMR 4350, CCI 250's and 70 gr Ballistic Tips. Dry fire it a few times while holding in the 100 yrd target to ensure your getting good releases. Also check the way the gun recoils off the bench or bag so that it remains constant. I dont buy that it is a barrel problem as you have hints of great groups.

I spent some of the most productive years of my life trying to get a Ruger to shoot. In my opinion, there's just better guns out there.

Good luck with it. My pillar/glass bedded/floated/crowned/trigger jobbed/hand massaged Ruger won't even come close to Shooting groups as tight as yours. heck, I'd be bragging to all my hunting buddies how well my Ruger shoots if it shot as good as yours. Id probably even still hunt with it if it shot that well. Regardless of its poor accuracy, my M77 has killed more deer than any of the guns in my safe, combined!

Thanks for all the replies...my work has kept me out of town and I haven't had the chance to shoot it since installing the the new spring.

I know there are "better" guns out there, but this is the first 6mm Rem ruger I've seen that refused to be a shooter. The guy I got this one from has its twin and it'll shoot rings round this one. I knew the gun had issues when I bought it. I just like tinkering with'em and seeing just how much I can maximize one.