Food for thought

19 April 2012, 21:45

bartsche

Food for thought

Three weeks ago my buddy was trying to sight in his new 22-250 Savage varmint rifle topped off with a new Weaver.

After bore sighting it shot 4 foot low and 5 foot to the left at 100yds.

He than replaced the scope with an identical Weaver. SAME RESULT.

Yesterday the rifle was waring another scope ; different manufacturer. Three of us agreed that the bore sighting at 50 yds. looked perfect.

At 100 yds. the shot was 4 foot low and 5 foot to the left.

Only once before have I seen something like this happen.

Are there any words of wisdom out there ?
Savage should receive the rifle sometime next week.

roger

19 April 2012, 21:52

carpetman1

If it was consistent, all he has to do is aim 4 foot high and 5 feet to the right and then he has it. May be another one of those we read about here all time that shoots one hole groups all day long.

19 April 2012, 23:21

Kabluewy

quote:
Originally posted by bartsche:
Are there any words of wisdom out there ?
roger

Sell it to Carpetman.

20 April 2012, 00:02

N E 450 No2

Sounds like the barrel was not straight in the reciever, bore was badly off center or the scope mount screw holes were drilled improperly...

Or maybe a little of all of the above...

20 April 2012, 05:53

wasbeeman

Sounds to me like if the barrel is pointed at the target and the scope is centered on the target, you ought to be damned close at 50 yards.
I've had them that I had to shim the scope to get it centered on target (I hate to use up too much elev or wind to get centered)but never anything like that.
How about posting what Savage comes up with.

20 April 2012, 06:12

ldkier

A consistent FLINCH??

20 April 2012, 08:23

bartsche

The only time I ever saw something like this was with a Mauser mod. 95, 7mmx57. Someone told me that the bore probably was not straight. I sawed that barrel into about 2 or 3 inch segments and sure enough the bore was bowed with respect to the OD of the barrel. Don't know about my buddy's rifle but it seems that it sure could be.

roger

20 April 2012, 08:25

bartsche

quote:
Originally posted by wasbeeman:

How about posting what Savage comes up with.

If they tell us I'll post it.

roger

20 April 2012, 20:18

Gerry

quote:
Are there any words of wisdom out there ?

Rog,

Hopefully, but you'll probably not get too many from me ..... I'd be interested to know what makes a rifle consistantly shoot that far off but don't sneer about my Weaver scopes now, I like 'em.

quote:
A consistent FLINCH??

..... Nah, that'd be me .....

Oh, Roger How do you do it? I mean eating all that popcorn ..... my weight would be outa control, well, it almost is already. I do like my Beer though.

21 April 2012, 07:16

Stonecreek

Yep, crooked bore. Happens more often than you would think, but usually not to this extent. If the scope has enough adjustment to put the actual shot on the paper you may find that the crooked bore shoots very consistently. The problem with crooked bores, however, is that as the barrel heats it may tend to straighten out (or crook more) and walk succeeding shots to a different POI. Since it is new rifle I think I would ask Savage to address the problem with a replacement barrel.

22 April 2012, 08:55

bartsche

quote:
Originally posted by Stonecreek:
If the scope has enough adjustment

Not in this world

roger

23 April 2012, 02:16

wasbeeman

beer cans or soda cans make good shims. If the mounting holes are not quite true, I prefer to shim the scope onto the target whilst keeping the scope centered until I start with the fine adjustments.

23 April 2012, 02:17

vapodog

quote:
Are there any words of wisdom out there ?

get some oblong ring inserts from the guys that make rings with plastic inserts.....that ought to get you in the ballpark......Savages are real accurate I'm told and if you get it sighted in it ought to be a winner.....LOL.....

Find a different gun company!

23 April 2012, 03:36

bartsche

quote:
Originally posted by vapodog:
quote:
Are there any words of wisdom out there ?

get some oblong ring inserts from the guys that make rings with plastic inserts.....that ought to get you in the ballpark......Savages are real accurate I'm told and if you get it sighted in it ought to be a winner.....LOL.....
Not an option,VD. My buddy says the rifle goes back for a new barrel. Although I am very pro on savage repeatability this one isn't worth the effort to try to make it shot little groups. Poor gamble in my opinion and my buddy's. Bad scene ;time to move on . roger

Find a different gun company!

23 April 2012, 05:27

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by bartsche:
Three weeks ago my buddy was trying to sight in his new 22-250 Savage varmint rifle topped off with a new Weaver.
After bore sighting it shot 4 foot low and 5 foot to the left at 100yds.
He than replaced the scope with an identical Weaver. SAME RESULT.
Yesterday the rifle was waring another scope ; different manufacturer. Three of us agreed that the bore sighting at 50 yds. looked perfect.
At 100 yds. the shot was 4 foot low and 5 foot to the left.
Only once before have I seen something like this happen.
Are there any words of wisdom out there ?
Savage should receive the rifle sometime next week. roger

May I ask what method did you use to bore sight the rifle?

The bore sighting method may be your problem instead of the rifle!

23 April 2012, 19:54

bartsche

quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:

May I ask what method did you use to bore sight the rifle?

The bore sighting method may be your problem instead of the rifle!

The same method I've and many others have used on hundreds of rifles and only one other time run into this problem.

roger

24 April 2012, 04:51

wasbeeman

Let's see. You put the rifle in a sturdy mount and remove the bolt. you look thru the bore and center the muzzle opening. Then you squiggle the mount around until the target is centered in the bore. Then, without touching anything, you look thru the scope. You adjust the corss hairs until the target is centered in the cross hairs and in the bore.
If there anothder way to do it?

24 April 2012, 08:39

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by bartsche:
quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:

May I ask what method did you use to bore sight the rifle?

The bore sighting method may be your problem instead of the rifle!

The same method I've and many others have used on hundreds of rifles and only one other time run into this problem. roger

Sorry Roger but that very friendly answer didn't tell me much! The same method you and many others have used on HUNDREDS of rifles is exactly WHAT Method?

24 April 2012, 20:25

bartsche

quote:
Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Let's see. You put the rifle in a sturdy mount and remove the bolt. you look thru the bore and center the muzzle opening. Then you squiggle the mount around until the target is centered in the bore. Then, without touching anything, you look thru the scope. You adjust the corss hairs until the target is centered in the cross hairs and in the bore.

10-4

roger

24 April 2012, 22:19

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by bartsche:
quote:
Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Let's see. You put the rifle in a sturdy mount and remove the bolt. you look thru the bore and center the muzzle opening. Then you squiggle the mount around until the target is centered in the bore. Then, without touching anything, you look thru the scope. You adjust the corss hairs until the target is centered in the cross hairs and in the bore.

10-4 roger

Thank you sir!

The rifle may be the problem but that is not a given.

First looking through the bore with an empty chamber is not accurate enough. Take a piece of brass with no primer in the chamber and use the flash hole like a peep sight. When you center the bore on the aiming point on the bull it will be far more precise. Now you need to adjust bthe scope's verticle cross hair in line for windage through the center of the bull. Now adjust the elevation to a point that is below the bore by the same amout the scope is above the center of the bore. This assuming you are bore sighting at 100 yds.

A laser bore sighter is better, with the laser on the center of the bull, adjust the scope to point below the laser the same amout below the laser that the scope is above the bore!

This just a suggestion and not meant to anger anyone,just trying to help! If it does anger anyone then I'll gladly back out of this so you can get back to your ratkilling!

..........................................................................BYE

25 April 2012, 03:10

bartsche

here, however, there is no way that bore sighting as stated could be inaccurate by 6.4 ft. Now that just ain't gonna happen ; not when 3 old time shooters agree on what they see more than once.

roger

25 April 2012, 05:10

Art S.

I much prefer bore sighting at 25 yards, for what it's worth. It is a lot easier to do, and I have never seen a rifle that was off the paper after a quick sight in at 25. It's then simple, generally in 2 shots, to move the impact to the proper spot and you are very close at 100.

I think it is true that a bent barrel is causing the problem. A barrel installed at an angle will shoot properly if boresighted. I did this very thing a few weeks ago, when a friend obtained such a beast. I had to use almost all the adjustment to bore sight it, but then it was right on. I have never tried this(never had the opportunity), but I believe that if a barrel is bent near the front, it would be almost impossible to use. If you consider the physical relationships, forcing the scope axis and the bore axis over the last few inches of the bent section into alignment would intersect at one point, but would be converging at a relatively acute angle, and would be far off at other ranges. It would be the equivalent of mounting the scope several inches (or several feet) away from the reciever. You could sight in to one distance, but the trajectory vs sight line would be useless.

If the barrel is bent near the chamber, it will act like a barrel installed at an angle. It will work but use up most of your adjustment to get on targey.

25 April 2012, 06:02

Rae59

It would be interesting to see what a collimator type bore sight would show since it would indicate the direction of the last few inches of bore rather than a visual average of the entire length of bore.

25 April 2012, 07:26

wasbeeman

quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:

First looking through the bore with an empty chamber is not accurate enough. [/QUOTE]

I would remind you that we are BORE SIGHTING the rifle. Not setting it up for a 1000yd match sight unseen. And FWIW, the method I outlined has stood me in good stead for around 50 years.
No thingies, no bullshit. Bore sight it at 25 yards and then move it to 50 yards and shoot one shot at a blank piece of paper. Then shoot your second shot at the first bullet hole. That will tell you exactly how far off you are. Make the adjustments (you have to double the values) and your third shot should be right on top of the first. Now you're ready to go to 100 yards and repeat.

25 April 2012, 08:03

bartsche

quote:
Originally posted by Rae59:
It would be interesting to see what a collimator type bore sight would show since it would indicate the direction of the last few inches of bore rather than a visual average of the entire length of bore.

Rae, I think you are spot on. It would be of interest. Let's say you had enough adjustment in the scope and or the mounts ( NOT ). What would happen when you started firing the rifle. Big unknown for a new rifle.Sending it back seems to be the prudent way to go.

roger