Hard to believe.......

19 December 2001, 13:19

<vibrasonic9>

While talking with a co-worker today he passed on a story/information given to him by a fella that was supposed to be some sort of super-duty guide here in Texas.

The fella told him there were more walk-offs of Texas deer from .270 and 7 Mag. than any other calibers and that .243 or .30-06 were the two best guns to hunt deer with. The reason being....according to the guide.......too much gun. The two former cartridges (according to this sage) were too fast and a deer was not a big enough animal to slow them down. My co-worker bought it. I don't; I've never in my life, not even once heard that a .270 was too much rifle for a deer.....not have I heard complaints from people shooting them. I personally shoot a .280; I also have a .25-06, 6.5X55, .308, .30-06 and .338 Mag.....I think any of them will work fine....how do you overkill an animal anyway?

Rod

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Rod's Place

19 December 2001, 13:39

Paul H

It is easy to condem a cartridge when the failure is shot placement. There are the occasional poor bullet choices as well, but if a 6.5mm on up fails to bring home a white tail, the problem is the shooter.

I similarly begrudge the statements that folks shouldn't use magnums because they make folks poor shots. A poor shot is a poor shot, and the cure is practice.

19 December 2001, 14:17

<Gary Rihn>

Hmmm, a 270 is too much gun, but an -06 is the best thing going...

Sounds like someone is a bit confused.

If you can't kill a deer with ANY of the four calibers listed above, I sure wouldn't blame it on the cartridge.

19 December 2001, 14:20

<Eric Leonard>

amen Paul.i have 2 6mm remingtons a 25-06 two 308s and a 300 RUM.either of them will flatten a whitetail.
when i bought the RUM some people accused me of being a bad shot and tried to make up for it by getting the bigger gun.all i can say to them is put your money where your mouth is.
just cause somebody kills a deer with a 223 doesnt make them a better shot than me just cause i shoot a magnum.
i probably shoot over 3000 rounds combined through the guns listed above each year.
when the range gets alittle longer and the weather gets rough the shot is easier to make with a 180 at 3400 than a 100 at 2950.

19 December 2001, 15:15

DanD

Darn, sure taught me, and I thought the 270 has killed more deer than %99 of the other cartridges out there.
I can't help but laugh when the 270 is to much but the .30-06 is perfect. Must be that .031 inches of difference.

19 December 2001, 16:26

<vibrasonic9>

DanD.....I think the guy had my buddy convinced that it was the velocity that was the problem. I could tell by talkin' to him that he understood little about bullet diameter; he looked at me like I was crazy when I told him my .280 shot the same bullet as a 7mag. at slower velocities and the deer don't know squat about velocity.

I think another problem was when this fella pulled out a Hornady manual and used velocity charts to explain to my friend that kinetic energy (which he called static energy) from a .270 was greater than that of an 06.

The two most common weights I see around here are 130 in the .270 and 150 in the 06. Given those weights and load book velocities: If the .270 is runnin' out at 3100fps/mv the energy at 150 yards ( a distance the guide called the most common shot yardage) would be right around 2231ft/lb. The 06 runnin' out at 2800fps/mv would have 2133 ft/lb of energy.......I say the deer don't know the difference and the guide's argument is crazy at best.

I think it's a shame that someone who is supposed to know these things would speak with such presumed authority and worse, have the uneducated running around thinking it's so because he said it was.

Oh well, it makes for good discussion here. ;^)

Rod

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Rod's Place

19 December 2001, 16:43

aladin

vibrasonic9: Before you go and comdem Mr Superduper guide- consider this. What's stamped on the barrel means squat-- it's how that bullet transfers that energy. Some particular makes of factory fodder do perform well- and some poorly, not opening and punching a hole vs the bullet mushrooming and transfering shock.

Maybe the 6mm shooters are using a varmint type bullet. 6mm bullets are much more fragile anyway. 150's in 30 cal open easily. Heavier 7 mm bullets tend to have thicker jackets- which surely could slip thru almost unexpanded given a fleshy hit. I had some old 30 cal 165's made by Hornady that would easily go thru a 12" white oak- just punching a caliber size hole.

It's not the barrel stamping-- it's the bullet construction- and how it performs.

[This message has been edited by aladin (edited 12-19-2001).]

19 December 2001, 20:53

Big_R

I remember hearing a story about an old guy who hunted white tail deer with a .223. Someone asked him what part of the deer he aimed for. He said it "really doesn't matter were you hit them......in the eye.) shot placement is everything whether you're hunting with a .22 or a .458.

20 December 2001, 02:10

<Gary Rihn>

quote:
Originally posted by vibrasonic9:
...this fella pulled out a Hornady manual and used velocity charts to explain to my friend that kinetic energy (which he called static energy)...

I'm confused. Static energy. Is that the energy of the bullet while it's sitting still? Or possibly it zaps the deer with an electrical charge, kinda like Big Sparky.

20 December 2001, 13:44

<Ol' Sarge>

I like the "Big Sparky" theory.

If the -06 has just the right amount of spark, at close range the .270 would have less and the RUM will kill 'em while pointed in the opposite direction?

I HATE THOSE SELF APPOINTED "EXPERTS"!!!!

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Jesus is the reason for the season.

20 December 2001, 14:16

<Varmint Hunter>

All the deer I've killed with my 270 weren't dead enough, so I moved up to the 7STW. I hope they don't all get away because of the excess velocity. HaHaHaHaHaHa
Some guys just crack me up.

20 December 2001, 14:47

<vibrasonic9>

It gets better; we continued this morning.

I told my friend that I thought his buddy was about half full of it......shouldn'ta done that.

He told me that on no less than 4 occasions he had gut-shot deer and had them fall in their tracks with his 30-06; what's more, if you do that with a .270 they'll just run off. It's a proven fact, the State of Texas did the research!!! I'm not kiddin' one bit neighbors, that's what he told me. He also told me he shot one through the chest and turned it's heart and lungs into jelly (metaphorically speaking of course).....but the bullet didn't expand....it only left a hole about 1 1/2" on the exit side....nope, it wasn't expansion it was (yeah you guessed it) static energy.

Aladin; I did attempt to discuss bullet construction and types with him but he wasn't hearing it. He just kept tellin' me about his buddy showing him those Nosler Partitions in that Hornady book. I guess I got ripped off, my Hornady loading book doesn't have any Nosler load data in it.

I'm no expert, I don't know half of what most of you guys do.....I just hate for this guy ('cause he's really a likeable guy that I get along with) to go around thinkin' what this guy told him is the truth.....maybe even gospel.
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Never pet a dog that's on fire.

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Rod's Place

21 December 2001, 00:39

<Eric Leonard>

the next one i shoot with the rum i may take a pic of the wound.

21 December 2001, 02:36

<Gary Rihn>

quote:
Originally posted by Ol' Sarge:
...and the RUM will kill 'em while pointed in the opposite direction?

Too funny!!

21 December 2001, 04:15

aladin

vibrasonic9: Your fella sounds like the same guy who regularly visits all regions of this US- or this world for that matter. They take a notion arrived at who knows how- some from reading and some from other reguritated Bull Scheitt-- mix it all up for 'their' story. Then when ya press their button, all this flow of reformulated Bull Scheitt comes spewing out. Sorta like a video only in a human form. Most often these people are decent types-- maybe abit gullible. Just another take on a quirk of human nature. Went one comes around- I just either hit the off button or mute.

21 December 2001, 09:42

DanD

So if I shoot a deer with a 30-404 topped with a 150grn bullet at almost 4000fps it will just run off....... I did not know that, thaks for the heads up.

21 December 2001, 10:06

Alstro

http://ulfhere.freeyellow.com/ballistics/game_study.html

Here is a study i found on the different calibers.

23 December 2001, 07:55

<Ol' Sarge>

Which, I believe was done by our friend and regular forumite, Harald.

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Jesus is the reason for the season.

23 December 2001, 17:25

Ku-dude

Thanks for sharing that article with us. It is one of the most informative I've seen in a very long time.

I wonder if the fact that .308 bore includes both .308Win and 30-06 explains the strange decrease in lethality for that bore (270's and .284 typically are based upon the 30-06 case).

I found the .257 information startling. My gunsmith swears that the .257 AI is the killingest round there is for whitetails. Seems his observations, which are extensive, are consistent with the studies findings.

Thanks again. Ku-dude

24 December 2001, 07:43

<Ol' Sarge>

I keep tellin' ya'll the .25-06 "kills like chain lightnin'".

The .257 Roberts kills all out of propotion to it's size too.

Love Them .25s.

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Jesus is the reason for the season.